[Erlend]

I’m rapidly running out of hope that such a discussion is even possible in this community.

That was sort of my point in the thread you just pulled Matt’s quote from, but I suppose I never came to articulate it like you just did.

The core problem is, this community is haunted by a great divide, the ones who are stuck with bbpress 0.9/1.x for better or for worse, and the ones who just really want to move on. This divide will not disappear any time soon, and it will certainly let its presence be known in every direction-related topic until bbPress standalone is firmly declared dead or forked. As long as its in limbo, so is the community.

This is why I suggested WordPress Foundation / Core Developers / Automattic could just as well pack up and leave from here and start anew elsewhere, easy as pie.

Sorry, I know this wasn’t what you asked for in the start of your topic, but I gotta vent some where.

[thomas.joy]

thomas.joy I deleted your post and the response from Zaerl. Please refrain from SHOUTING and profanity.

Thanks,

Chris Hajer

chrishajer [at] gmail [dot] COM

[Greg]

Nope, many sites will continue to use and advance bbPress standalone. Matt might not invest dev resources in that, but others will.

0.9 is a defacto fork today, and there has been talk of a more official fork. Even Matt has said…

“Since the stated roadmap for whatever is going to be called “bbPress” and live at bbpress.org is to build on the success of WordPress if you disagree with that direction it’s probably best to fork at that time.”

So I think Matt acknowledges the potential continued existence of standalone, but believes that independent roadmaps is the right approach. I was hoping to take a step back and discuss the relative merits of that versus an approach where plugin and standalone were more coupled.

I’m rapidly running out of hope that such a discussion is even possible in this community.

[_ck_]

It’s hand coded, probably into the template system.

It’s parsing the readme.txt file.

Far too custom that you’d ever find a plugin for it.

It’s probably using in part some of the code from Mark Jaquith who designed the readme.txt format for Matt/Automattic and implemented by mdawaffe (Michael)

http://wordpress-plugin-readme-parser.googlecode.com/

[Ashish Kumar (Ashfame)]

@_ck_

Thanks a lot

I am gonna ditch v1.0+ and start using 0.9 from now on. Will downgrade my other installations too.

[_ck_]

Sorry I thought you were asking about any potential advantages/disadvantages of a wordpress plugin vs standalone forums.

Actually the three messages before me all mentioned performance too?

But am I missing something or isn’t bbPress standalone dead with 1.1 ?

Your questions is well stated and laid out, but isn’t the point moot?

Or is this just hypothetical?

[Greg]

[this is probably directed more at JJJ and Pete than anyone else]

With BuddyPress and now bbPress as plugin, does WordPress have an architectural direction for plugins that extend other plugins.

Or perhaps the right way to think about this is plugin dependencies. I see this discussion in WP trac where the consensus seems to be that plugin dependencies should be handled by sub-plugin developers with the neat approach Mark Jaquith suggests there.

This is beautiful in its simplicity, but a little unfriendly to the ordinary user installing a bbPress plugin without bbPress-as-plugin installed and activated.

Is Mark’s approach the plan for bbPress as plugin, or has the thinking evolved since this discussion 6 months ago?

[Mark McWilliams]

_ck_: Well, multiple BLOGS, I am not sure if they can get multiple forums going on the first version, we’ll see. But I am sure it’s a goal of Matt’s so they can use it on WordPress.com

I’m not sure how they couldn’t get it going, but I sure do think it’ll be on the list!

Even if it doesn’t make the first version, it’s going to be put in there not long after. At the end of the day, that’ll be a major ”selling” point when it comes to people using bbPress (IMHO!)

[deadlyhifi]

The plugin is Add bbPress Default Role. It’s three lines of code so you may be better just writing it into your functions.php file.

[_ck_]

<cite>ashfame</cite>

I guess all your plugins are tagged https://bbpress.org/plugins/tags/_ck_

right?

And I believe even your updated plugins support 0.9 ?

Unfortunately the plugin section is still broken and does not import tags so the _ck_ tag is no longer complete there (update: someone appears to have fixed it in the past 24 hours)

For now this is the only way to find them all:

http://bbshowcase.org/forums/topic/_ck_-plugin-catalog-index

Virtually 100% my plugins will support 0.9 (except ones specifically made to “fix” 1.x)

<cite>Mark McWilliams</cite>

Not with WordPres 3.0 anyway, 1 install, multiple sites!

Well, multiple BLOGS, I am not sure if they can get multiple forums going on the first version, we’ll see. But I am sure it’s a goal of Matt’s so they can use it on WordPress.com

[_ck_]

WordPress today cannot run a live site without caching.

You’ll get kicked off any shared hosting in a heartbeat.

This is a HUGE regression because there are times when a page cannot be cached. I was looking at mashable the other day – it uses over ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY queries per page. It would be slaughtered without a super dooper amount of caching.

But bbPress 0.9 is fully capable of taking loads without any caching at all. I know of a few large sites that use it without any caching, it just doesn’t need it if properly configured until you get to slashdot level loads.

So in what fantasy world does anyone believe that adding the load of bbPress as a plugin to WordPress’s existing burden will ever make it faster than 0.9 ?

WP 3.0 already requires the increase of PHP’s default memory allocation per instance (over 32M in some cases). bbPress 0.9 runs in less than 1M (with a whole bunch of plugins at that).

If being more attractive to the WP masses was important, what should have been done is a project to make standalone bbPress’s integration with WP easier. Perhaps mimic WP’s template actions, etc. so WP templates could be used with less modification.

But like backPress, I’m afraid it’s probably too late.

I’m not saying this to be mean Matt, but the reality is Automattic is becoming a one-hit-wonder with everything being folded back into WordPress.

(and if a bbPress as plugin with WordPress backend goes down for any reason, failed upgrade, security hit, etc. now so will your forum)

[Mark McWilliams]

_ck_: As far as I could guess, you’d have to install multiple copies of WP.

Not with WordPres 3.0 anyway, 1 install, multiple sites!

[Erlend]

@Ryan: I had JS enabled but.., aha, I never noticed the double-click edit upon mouse hover before. Neat

Now, the thing I encountered in both the P2 theme and Justin’s forum plugin is: Neither (seems to be able to-) take advantage of WordPress’ own in-built rich text editor.

I probably did not make this clear enough in my first post. My main point sort of ended up in the second to last paragraph:

What I’d love to see is rich front-end editing based on the native WP editor

What I’m inquiring about is:

How to achieve front-end editing with WordPress’ native rich editor?

The main question is of course ‘how will bbPress go about doing this?’, but clearly this method is still unbeknown to many plugin authors who could greatly benefit from it.

(Disclaimer: My project relies on the bp-wiki plugin, and I am indeed curious as to the possibility of a a more conventional approach to rich front end edits in the future.)

One ‘almost’ example I found is this one:

https://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/tinymce-excerpt/

It grabs the native editor and displays it somewhere new. However I suspect it can only do so because it’s still within the confines of the admin backend. Posting and editing content from front-end can clearly be achieved, but apparently with severe limitations. It’s getting functions that are normally limited to the backend (tinymce editor, file upload, etc) to the front-end that is awkward.

Speaking of which, feasibility image/file uploads would make for an excellent follow-up question, but maybe you’d rather have me start a new thread for it?

[Ryan Hellyer]

Justin Tadlock’s plugin does allow front-end editing. It just forces you to use the WordPress admin panel if you don’t have JS running. Having said that, I’d much rather see that improved in the future so that front-end editing was possible without JS on. I assume Justin is working on that though.

[r-a-y]

The alternative is to block bbPress registration and redirect to WordPress’ registration page.

[johnhiler]

“I am supremely interested in the performance aspects and confident we can make the plugin scale better than bbPress does today or did in the 0.7-0.9 line.”

I would be really amazed if this came to pass! WordPress leaves quite a footprint, so adding plugins to the mix would seem to increase that even more?

That said, I’m definitely excited to see how you increase performance and scalability!

[Matt Mullenweg]

Non-plugin bbPress development is going to continue until we have a perfect importer so people will be able to bring their content out of the legacy codebase.

[Matt Mullenweg]

Since the stated roadmap for whatever is going to be called “bbPress” and live at bbpress.org is to build on the success of WordPress if you disagree with that direction it’s probably best to fork at that time.

[Greg]

Regarding Matt’s “”As for bundling multiple plugins with core — ultimately it’s a cop-out. If something is good enough to be included with the core download, put it in core!””

I agree with everything johnhiler said on this, plus I would add that the advantage of core plugins is that their coupling with the real core will be more well defined and probably minimized. Making something a plugin puts a clear boundary around the set of features that it adds. It also guarantees that the real core can work without this functionality.

Without this to enforce discipline on the design, things are far more likely to become highly coupled spaghetti.

A related issue is core bloat. Something like Windows or WordPress adds features in every release and seldom removes them. The result is that the code base is monotonically increasing in size and complexity. It will ultimately collapse under its own weight. This means that significant rewrites become necessary from time to time.

The Unix “small and decoupled is beautiful” approach is maintainable for much longer for this reason.

Higher coupling does have its advantages (performance, UX), but they are usually short term gains, winning the battle but losing the war.

[_KB_]

ok kevinjohngallagher, I’ll wait, till then I’ll try for new integration with no “www”.

[Matt Mullenweg]

johnhiler, the assumptions are indeed an active core. In the WordPress world, people who were active in the plugin arena also become active in core. In bbPress, they haven’t. Maybe that will change now.

[kevinjohngallagher]

why not no need of “www”? reason?

We’ve known that using “www” during installs has caused issues in the past. Especially if you used “www” for one isntall and not the other.

Cookies are/were (been a long time since i looked into this) using the full URL so “www.bbpress.org”‘s cookie would be different from “bbpress.org”‘s cookie if you didn’t specify.

99/100 it makes no difference. 1/100 it does

.

.

You are right that there was no need for the salts when bbPress1.0 was released, but we’ve had 3 WP releases since then. I find its better to be safe than sorry.

So I’m confuse why we need two separate authentications for both wp and bbP.

In theory: You do not.

In Practice: It doesn’t hurt at all.

Request:

Can you please create two demo files for wp-config.php and bb-config.php with authentication keys, and make live them to pastebin.com & paste links here?

Sure, i’ll do that tonight when I get home.

Am off to see Toy Story3 in 10 mins.

[_KB_]

kevinjohngallagher two more things?

why not no need of “www”? reason?

will exact formate be

https://bbpress.org/?

or

bbpress.org (even no need of http:// ?)

Second I was thinking there was no need of authentication keys from https://api.wordpress.org/secret-key/1.1/bbpress/salt/ because we copy keys/hashes from wp-config into bb-config, So I’m confuse why we need two separate authentications for both wp and bbP.

Request:

Can you please create two demo files for wp-config.php and bb-config.php with authentication keys, and make live them to pastebin.com & paste links here?

I’ll be very thankful,

Cheers

[kevinjohngallagher]

Well I can see some things I’d change. Will they make a difference? i don’t know, probably not, but again, they’re what I use.

(I wish the search function here was half decent so I could find the post I went into this in detail in…)

1) Get your authentication Keys from https://api.wordpress.org/secret-key/1.1/bbpress/salt/

2) Copy your WordPress authentications into your bbPrefig file

define('AUTH_KEY',         '5G#If&OQrV:MfrjuU2;NKhfw|Z:|iU>@hw^LLTxv|~8KPC9S;-+r#J&|T=DS%#X8');

define('SECURE_AUTH_KEY',  'u.p|C]A*s*@M%VGr4;_Cc-*d|I:QjTT&p6kcTL:^X+tzUT)7k-S]h)q^c|||$uy;');

define('LOGGED_IN_KEY',    'xA+j,OZKD_*, 6|Jb7C6rS*3(oT4{-Y)R.E/|!xNtb8,GYzp,X-?i[HtTRE|81h=');

define('NONCE_KEY',        '4h035-4lx6-W.>dtZzRtA=XA+&G5v)llX[B>4--:>hX0h:Ey$afw|&[r_1zHQnZ^');

define('AUTH_SALT',        '+/poE0c>eRr#l54-r@:S.4HD^s3Zr%w-S;s++d,[ku5#Aj{N6g6T;.P>/UB8bIUn');

define('SECURE_AUTH_SALT', 'ck.^(0_T5tON$lTy>dkPZ#]1wZ~yKBkE0m>60H_FRG r6yXd#E|dhJAVvPDu5Kf.');

define('LOGGED_IN_SALT',   'Fz^)*aj<U[RxO3A][1K=pXX6a-4-<R7=[fe$1[hT5d!e-_onpNrk^t|j%!~a+;KP');

define('NONCE_SALT',       'TEdXdR+g]&YY9/YtZX^[,e{_U+^fSGcgt JqKB<[sh:3Jg<7RG~f_.xLX(9e5FXV');



define('BB_AUTH_KEY',         'f@X, B|4rcQ?sv#[]q+x;r =KO{r}i<|h%0=?>!/f|0A#[qzh9pNWdnZR8XadkFH');

define('BB_SECURE_AUTH_KEY',  'X0*%@*wpp(A[/(4RD(TWAnW7N[:gYBZ:@r}-z;w),|fptIbt5 Ro}8Tr?}-c-y+m');

define('BB_LOGGED_IN_KEY',    'cbal+zxea.]|C!ZsWQ6}cKy+?!eSs?@(t)qCz=H*4CDrZlXoC+-X#[h5Hl37LU~/');

define('BB_NONCE_KEY',        '4{ZC+__k{]MPr[I{~q$Muta#XghduMPBRQvNZqFIm-~-4-DaH|vH$6W~)wD!^92X');

define('BB_AUTH_SALT',        '?v&+?5?vnXoIPuc&%OQMNN#QP_Xf&ZA0J:FO;tY:JdEjT5xt^k$,-q!XvVS,E)$1');

define('BB_SECURE_AUTH_SALT', 'n(M15M~Y<qg(A!x8ov,7]:+HZ>q0ajV3!feD){dLPhn2upN?;fIRE.@~14xH?v!8');

define('BB_LOGGED_IN_SALT',   '{Lu=[hq;BCEu j>n[Ejv%]w-k y?$@*sK@VcB<7E)wR/mrUIGj%9@*Q>.v]P|~#x');

define('BB_NONCE_SALT',       '*9Dv~}=@+k<g-w$WIsEXdxULL0yz0D{]!9@HY/e$7Ru|^dv?QF$gy!}dcLIC>@5P');

3. With no disrespect to that screencast, it is 19 months old, and we’ve had a whole new version of bbPress since then. For integration I always use http://wpbbpthemes.org/integration/ as a starting guide.

4. Check you’re not using “www” anywhere in the URLS you specify in the database, or that you installed any of the bbPress/WordPress systems while using “www”.

[_KB_]

@kevinjohngallagher thanks dear, I’ve done it already, its a part of integration, But I really surprised why its won’t work for me??

but I’m curious that may be _ck_ tell me new thing.

OK, I’m going to disclose my config files and cookies, check it dear buddies….

for wordpress,

http://pastebin.com/embed_iframe.php?i=hPpMiDyZ

for zptest students

http://pastebin.com/embed_iframe.php?i=jcS2377M

If you need more things, I’ll share it..I really want to fix it….Thanks