[pastorbobsforum]

OK, but it’s not working. I don’t think that the line nr matters that much, does it?

Anyway, I’ll post everything that involves my forumlist from my stylesheet here, to prove that I did exactly what you’ve suggested.

.num, #forumlist small {

font: 11px Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;

text-align: center;

#latest td, #forumlist td, #favorites td { padding: 5px 10px; }

#forumlist tr td div.nest {

padding-left: 2.5ex;

}

#latest tr:hover, #forumlist tr:hover, #favorites tr:hover { background-color: #d8dcf2; }

#latest th, #forumlist th, #favorites th {

text-align: left;

background-color: rgb(102, 102, 102);

font: 11px Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;

font-weight: normal;

padding: 5px 9px;

color: rgb(255, 255, 255);

}

#latest th a, #forumlist th a, #favorites th a {

color: rgb(200, 200, 200);

font-style: italic;

}

#latest th a:hover, #forumlist th a:hover, #favorites th a:hover {

color: rgb(255, 255, 255);

}

#latest, #forumlist, #favorites {<br />

background-color: #f7f7f7;<br />

margin-bottom: 3em;<br />

}</p>

<p>#latest, #forumlist {<br />

margin-top: -0.9em;<br />

padding-right: 10px;

I hope that it is of some use.

Bob

[_ck_]

With all the eyeballs looking at WordPress and all the new faces every few years, it’s amazing to me how much code optimization falls through the cracks and is never addressed.

bbPress as a plugin is now going to be exposed to that. In fact, ironically in 0.9 there are functions from earlier versions of WordPress that were never optimized and do “expensive” recalculations and yet it’s STILL significantly faster than 1.0 with the newer functions from BackPress.

WordPress still has places where it calculates kinds of conversion tables yet never stores them statically for when it will likely be used again in the same page load. All those eyeballs looking at the code never see it and never fix it.

WordPress after all these years STILL uses the poorly performing SQL_CALC_FOUND_ROWS, something that was discovered and fixed in bbPress 0.9 but ironically was re-introduced with BackPress in 1.0, and will likely continue as a plugin.

My problem with “progress” is regression. It happens often because no-one questions the bloat and then the bloat starts to hide mistakes because the code is too hard to follow and people forget the original purpose of a function.

But by all means, keep throwing junk into the core, don’t dare keep it isolated in a plugin where it can be examined and improved easily (ie. avatars, tinymce, phpmailer, etc.)

They never do version freezes for long periods of time to clean up and optimize code, they just pile on features in the name of progress.

Go install WP 2.1 and check the memory and query footprint.

Then install WP 3.0 and compare. It’s fairly disgusting in comparison.

[pastorbobsforum]

Hello again.

I’m back to the unwrapping issue again.

Even though I’ve got .num, #forumlist small {

font: 11px Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;

text-align: center;

} forumlist is still unwrapped, as in the screenshot.

http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/ac166/nobody5973/screenshot_003.png

Any ideas?

Bob

[_ck_]

@Marius, but everyone downloads different ones.

I’d never want to see even a handful of my plugins built into bbPress by default.

As much as people express the desire for a program to do everything they want out-of-the-box, it’s a VERY bad idea with software. Makes things too bulky. WordPress today is a perfect example of what happens when you give into that desire, you get bloated, overloaded, slow code.

But sadly they don’t believe in plugins – I’m kinda surprised even akismet is not hard coded into WordPress.

bbPress should have been a lightweight framework, half the size that it is now, that maybe shipped with a dozen plugins that are OFF by default. Too late now though.

[kevinjohngallagher]

Thats a leap mate.

The joy of bbPress is that if you want something, you can use a plugin. It keeps things nice and light for those that don’t want it

2. Less (code) is more

3. Simplicity is a feature

https://bbpress.org/about/

That said, _ck_, congratulations!!

Its wonderful for it to be so obvious as to how much you’ve contributed.

[Ivaylo Draganov]

Just came to my mind that bbPress does not support bbCode without a plugin.

But the good thing is that this technique can be easily adopted for use with HTML input by simply changing the toolbar set used by markItUp.

[Ivaylo Draganov]

woot – that zaerl editor is right on the point, I hadn’t noticed it before. You could also check out this topic on how to implement markItUp as editor for bbPress:

https://bbpress.org/forums/topic/bbcode-toolbar-with-markitup-editor

The explanation is for bbCode, but it could be easily changed for HTML input.

[Ivaylo Draganov]

A well written post too!

Thanks! Just a bit too many links for Akistmet though

And of course it could not be seen in action on my forum, because it is visible only to logged in users… silly me

The bbpress.org forums could also use a simple toolbar. Not so sophisticated but at least like the one on wordpress.org

[kevinjohngallagher]

Morning Peter,

It’s cool if you disagree. I’m confident we could all pick something in WordPress in the core that we think should still be a plug-in; and of course there is no right answer. What I’m not sure you’re aware of though, and you might be, is just how different the “overhead” between bbPress and WordPress is.

bbPress0.9 loads and runs at 10 or under SQL queries per page. Including the front page. Thanks to certain DB/query tweaks, and some wonderful _CK_ code, I have that at 8 SQL queries on one of my smallest intranet forums.

This is in comparison to the same 8 queries generated by the new wp_nav_menu in WP3.0. In fact the wp_nav_menu calls a not totally-in-expensive INNER JOIN for each post-type reference in the menu. It’s not a set 8 calls, without judging anything based on what it will become, if wp_nav_menu starts to accept custom post types natively, that’s going to shoot way up.

In a flat comparison, the default theme of WP3.0 with no plug-ins running, generates 19 SQL queries. Twice as much as bbPress0.9.

As someone mentioned earlier, the new bbPress plug-in would be lighter or sleeker. If it takes more SQL calls to generate the header and footer of WP than it does to load an entire bbPress forum – how does that work?

(I do realise that not all SQL queries are equal, but I do think it’s quite a good initial benchmark. Especially if you look at SAVEQUERIES output and see what sort of query each is, and its execution time.)

Additionally, as someone with your background with WP, I would love to hear your take on the caching issue. For two of my websites that have relatively ok traffic, caching is essential on WP. There are plug-ins that do this brilliantly, so thats no worries. But thats very much a “1 to n” nature. Forums are an “n to n” nature; and really don’t lean well with caching, especially in the flat-file constant-updated format.

How would one percieve that to affect WP based websites with a forum plugin of this nature attatched?

=================================

I think there is a viewpoint that is being missed here.

People are falling into 3 groups:

1. Need a forum that works with WordPress
2. Need a standalone forum, but some WordPress integration is ideal (sign in/users)
3. Needs a standalone forum.

There appears to be a presumption is that we’re all in Group 1 and that we’re fighting change. That’s not the case at all.

I’m actually in favour of there being a WordPress forum plug-in. I think loads of people here will be. I also think that with JJJ working on it, and Justin Tadlock’s second attempt out there in the wild that it will go really well. I wish it the best of luck, and if we can offer advice or war stories or anything to help out – we’re here. We’re here because we support FOSS

The issue arises here is if you’re in Group 2, you have a decision whether to “upgrade” to running everything through WordPress or not. It’s just been presumed that’s your actual goal. At this point in time, we’d like some information (positives/negatives at a minimum) and info on how this decision has came about. People in Group 2 could move into Group 1 easily if given more information than:

“everything is going to be A-okay”

“Like it or not, this is the hand we’ve been dealt…”

But the users in Group3, the people who chose this as standalone forum software and didn’t make that decision based on WordPress – they’re being thrown out on their ear. With no warning. JJJ has stated, and I think we all appreciate that he’s taken the time to sit and answer some questions, that bbPress1.1 will be it’s last. Well, thats announced as bbPress1.1 is 1 trac ticket away from being released. How much warning is that??

If you’re in Group3, and large chunk of our support questions come from people who are, you will now be ‘forced’ to run WordPress if you want to stick with bbPress.

==============================================

I suppose what I’m saying is this. Changes in Life and in FOSS happen. Some we like, some we don’t. But there has to be a carrot with every stick, or people start to feel publicly flogged.

I want JJJ and Pete and anyone who helps them to succeed in achieving their goals. But I’ve scanned this forum page, and the emails they were kind enough to send me, and right now, if you didn’t come here specifically to use a forum inside WordPress… I can’t see the carrot.

There are people here alot cleverer than me, and alot better at wording than myself, so if i’m missing the carrot, please do a Denzel “explain it to me like a 3 year old”.

[kevinjohngallagher]

style.css line 697

.num, #forumlist small {

font:11px Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;

text-align:center;

white-space:nowrap;

}

You need to remove the line in bold

[Peter Westwood]

It will probably also suffer from what I call the “kitchen sink” syndrome of WordPress where massive chunks of code are added as features which should have been plugins. But Automattic in general has a “not invented here” attitude towards plugins – if it’s not in the core, it doesn’t count.

Firstly, it’s not “Automattic” that decides what ends up in the core of WordPress – we have open discussions to set the feature lists for each release and the decisions are driven based on input from a large base of regular contributors.

Secondly, I strongly disagree with the implication that WordPress has a “kitchen sink” feature set – in fact we try very hard to only bring in the things which have a wide audience and leave the more niche things for plugins.

One of the factors which helps a feature come into the core is the existence of a plugin which is popular showing a clear demand for a feature and sometimes providing a starting point for the implementation as well.

[pastorbobsforum]

Hello.

Why would one table come up ok (latest), but forumlist would look like this? http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/ac166/nobody5973/screenshot_003.png

This is what I have in style.css

#latest, #forumlist, #favorites {

background-color: #f7f7f7;

margin-bottom: 3em;

width: auto;}

Isn’t the wrapper in the body supposed to *wrap* things up nicely?

#wrapper {

margin: 0 0 0 0;

background: #fff;

width: 850px;

padding: 0 20px;}

I hope that people have been confronted with this issue before and successfully overcame it,

Thank you.

Bob

[mr_pelle]

Now available for download.

[_ck_]

@gswaim, except history is about to be repeated with nothing learned. “Very near” is also not likely this year. Completely different people worked on 0.9/1.0 and now the plugin version. There is going to be a learning curve.

The plugin version is going to have the same tumultuous development pattern that bbPress 0.7, 0.8, 0.9, 1.0 did and probably take a couple years to get stable and feature rich. It will probably also suffer from what I call the “kitchen sink” syndrome of WordPress where massive chunks of code are added as features which should have been plugins. But Automattic in general has a “not invented here” attitude towards plugins – if it’s not in the core, it doesn’t count.

There is also the problem that anyone on a shared host will unlikely be able to run WP 3.0 with the bbPress plugin unless they have a very small forum/memberbase. The resource demand is going to be massive and require hours of fine tuning which most novices will not be able to do. Forums cannot be heavily cached like blogs can.

Then you are right back to the same old WP problems which will be introduced into bbpress after avoiding them previously, plopping regular users into confusing WP admin menus to change settings and completely different than the site theme.

For the casual WP user that has a few dozen members and wants a simple forum, the bbpress as plugin will be very handy. For those with thousands of members and end up with a very active forum, they will spend a great deal of time dealing with the resource loads.

Remember, there are already a couple of plugins for WordPress that bring forum functionality – go look at their problems to foresee what is going to happen. That’s how I ended up adopting bbPress standalone in the first place, I decided it was the best way to deal with the problems (work AROUND wordpress, instead of through it).

[kevinjohngallagher]

Good Morning Dan,

It definately sounds like a conversion issue. It’s not one i’ve heard of before, but it shouldn’t be too hard to fix (though there is no existing pluign that I know of).

Baiscally you’re going to need a Title to Slug function, then iterate through every forum & topic and update the database accordingly

Basically, something like this:

$sql = "SELECT * from $bbdb->topics WHERE topic_slug ='' LIMIT 100";

$rows = $bbdb->get_rows($sql);



foreach($rows as $row)

{

$topic_slug = bb_sanitize_with_dashes($row['topic_title'],200);

$sql = "UPDATE $bbdb->topics SET topic_slug='". $topic_slug ."' WHERE topic_id=". $row['topic_id'] ." LIMIT 1; ";

}

So i’ve not tested this code at all, just guessing at it really.

It should update 100 topics at one page load.

(I do this incase i made a horrible mistake)

Then do the same for bb_forum table.

Kev

[Earthman Media]

I just found a huge file “core” (no extension) in my bbpress root folder…

it is a binary file which has a lot of unreadable characters, interspersed with segments of code from bbpress and what appears to be log entries…

Is this supposed to be there, or is this some kind of viral invasion.

any advice would be most appreciated, before I delete it.

Thanks!

[gswaim]

At the end of the day it’s free, open source software. Polarized or not, bbPress has a team now. If this can just be summed up as a years worth of pent up frustration coming out, I can understand that, but we’ve all been going at this for almost 3 days now, and I’d rather write code and fix stuff and make progress than rehash bbPress’s tumultuous existence.

Exactly. There comes a time when it is time to move on. IMHO that time is very near.

JJJ has patiently articulated, to this group, the mission he was commissioned to handle and IMHO it is time to code. As I watched this thread, I feared that he would get bogged down and burnt out trying to make everybody happy. However, he seems to be keenly aware of this and has done a good job of keeping his eye on the prize.

I am a WordPress user that has been waiting for a core forum plug-in for well over a year. As soon as it is available I am installing it, and I suspect I will not be alone.

If only 10% of the WordPress.org-powered websites install this plug-in, the bbPress plug-in user base would dwarf the stand alone bbPress user base. Making bbPress available to a much larger audience cannot be a bad thing, in the long run.

[John James Jacoby]

Looking back through a lot of this discussion, I can see how some of my posts in here sound a little crass; and that isn’t my intention or goal.

So, let me apologize to each of you for that, if it came across that way.

My intentions with bbPress are to be helpful, provide guidance, be a sounding board, commit patches, and make the bbPress plugin something everyone here can be proud to use.

I don’t want anyone to fork anything; to feel left out, pushed out, forced out, any of that stuff. I very badly want everyone to feel comfort that we’re putting bodies and eyes on something that’s needed it for a long while, even if it isn’t exactly the way everyone agrees it should be.

You all have my word that I’ll be combing the trac, and helping things around and about as much as I can. My concentration is on bbPress the plugin, and BuddyPress, but any place else I can spread some bandwidth, I’m glad to do it. If anyone else wants to help out, I’m happy to have you aboard.

Pete Mall stepped up right away to help several months ago when this idea first cropped up in IRC and at a few WordCamps, so naturally he’s on board. The existing committers aren’t going anywhere, and everything is going to be A-okay.

[Peter Westwood]

Westi didn’t comment on it in my email to him, though he did say that he didn’t know that bbPress was dependant on BackPress – and he’s the BackPress lead!! really lovely guy, but it hardly bodes well.

That isn’t a fair representation of what I said in reply to the email which was:

I was unaware that BackPress was blocking bbPress release this is the first I have heard of it.

Which is perfectly true – no one had tried to contact me directly about it before you.

I was and still am surprised that a point release of bbPress would be running with a floating external as trunk of BackPress is never guaranteed to be perfect code.

I would actually expect it to be run against the last revision that bbPress was release / against a branch with specific fixes as required.

If anyone want to be sure to get my attention for a BackPress issue then the extremely quite BackPress-dev mailing list is the best way – I read every email to that list promptly – https://lists.wordpress.org/mailman/listinfo/backpress-dev

[Anonymous User]

Hi John JJ,

thanks for your long statements here. For me – it’s great to hear about the future von bbPress. And even greater – bbPress has a team now!

Yeahhh…

[John James Jacoby]

All this has been said, and answered before. I just downloaded 2 plugins from the repo, and they worked fine enough. I am also of the opinion that this iteration of bbPress.org is the best looking and working one so far.

In Matt’s defense, I haven’t seen anything that Matt said qualify as berating, and the people he disagrees with, are people already on a verbal or moral offensive. Having been able to see through both sides of that looking glass, I can tell you with first hand experience that Matt is almost always on his A game, even if you don’t understand it at the time. But, this isn’t something I really want to get into because it just isn’t classy to do.

I get that everyone wants to hear from Matt and/or Jane. It sounds to me like you really want an apology more than you want anything else, because you’ve answered your own questions about how gaps in development have been filled in.

At the end of the day it’s free, open source software. Polarized or not, bbPress has a team now. If this can just be summed up as a years worth of pent up frustration coming out, I can understand that, but we’ve all been going at this for almost 3 days now, and I’d rather write code and fix stuff and make progress than rehash bbPress’s tumultuous existence.

P.S. – BuddyPress uses bbPress internally, so I’ve lurked for the past year+ and paid attention to the goings on. I just didn’t have the time or energy to have these discussions then. Now, I do, but there’s not much more I can say; it comes down to what we do about it. Like it or not, this is the hand we’ve been dealt… Time to make the best of it.

[kevinjohngallagher]

Indeed mate,

this is what I use, and it really is awesome.

I’ve managed to get my whole JS down to about 1-2% of what TinyMCE is.

A well written post too!

[pagal]

@kevinjohngallagher which keyword you’ve used for google to find this solution?

Why are you begging? I did not send you invitation to help me!

Sorry I don’t want to say any more, otherwise cris will close this topic.

[chrishajer]

Rescued this post from Akismet

[kevinjohngallagher]

OFC!

Thats daft of me.

if (! bb_is_user_logged_in() && basename($_SERVER['PHP_SELF'] != "bb-login.php")

{

header( 'Location: bb-login.php' );

}

Pagal, please mate, i beg of you.

Google for 5 minutes before posting these requests and telling everyone they don’t understand what you want, and never saying please or thank you.

We want to help bro, help us by using Google first