Forum Replies Created
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Always loved this idea personally. As a 2004 phpBB2.x graduate, I was constantly trying to make my forum software do stuff it wasn’t intended to do. This brings me back to those days.
@gswaim If it comes down to name calling or aggression, that’s always an option, but usually the last one if we can all help it. Fortunately the moderation team over here is fantastic, so no worries there.
The decision to allow Pete and myself the opportunity to do the bbPress plugin conversion wasn’t only Matt’s to make, and was agreed on by a committee of all of our peers running the 3.org initiatives, in #wordpress-dev on freenode, and on the WordPress development blog.
The reason it’s bbPress 1.2 rather than bbPress 2.0 (at least as it stands today) is because part of the coding standards we adhere to is not inflating version numbers. Could always see if everyone agrees to inflate based on the amount of new code going in, but I don’t think that’s my decision to make, and I would wager that it’s unlikely to happen? Been wrong before though.
Again, just too many of the same points to repeat myself, but bbPress standalone isn’t going to be “unsupported”, it just isn’t going to see any additional features, which is exactly what I think most of you want. Correct me if I’m wrong here?
If I wasn’t on my iPad I’d quote myself volunteering personally to commit any bug fixes to the 1.1x branch of code if anything comes up, but again, that went totally unresponded to.
All of the things I’ve offered to do, to help continue the 1.1x branch of standalone code in addition to creating the 1.2 plugin, have gone totally unacknowledged. If you want to be able to do it yourself, you’ll need to have the experience to understand that the code you write is responsible for powering millions of sites around the world, and that you can easily create global chaos with one click of a button. Call me melodramatic, but in environments like WordPress.com, it’s very true. My experience over the past year has had me much more close to that kind of environment, particulalrly with BuddyPress.
A year ago I felt keeping bbPress as a standalone made sense because a year ago I didn’t comprehend what was coming in WordPress, particularly 3.0 where custom post types have made much more possible. I also had less experience with BackPress, and don’t get me wrong; BackPress is awesome, but bbPress won’t reach its full potential until it’s a plugin for 25 million other websites.
Kevinjohn, I’m sorry but you’ve got a knack for twisting words around and quoting things totally out of context. That’s not really fair, and I wouldn’t do it to you or anyone else so I’d appreciate the same.
I don’t get what you all want bbPress to do differently that would even require a new standalone version. I’ve asked that before, and there’s no answer; just frustration.
bbPress has always been an Automattic endorsed project, and considering without Matt it wouldn’t exist, or have a trac, an svn, or core developers thus far, it seems like he’s the one who’s earned the ability to make decisions on the future of the project. If you call me believing that to be true drinking that Kool Aid, I’m happy to do it because I believe Matt and Automattic and bbPress has earned that from me. If Matt wanted to abandon bbPress completely and close up shop, he could, and someone could graciously keep it alive by forking it. None of that stuff, should make anyone this upset.
My employment status or relationship with Automattic aside, I’m happy, blessed, and consider it a great privilege to have the trust of Automattic and the surrounding community to take this on, even if some of you don’t understand why it’s me, or why now, or why a plugin.
Regarding TalkPress, the main reason it’s named differently is to avoid the confusion people have with WordPress.org and WordPress.com. bbPress is the opensource forum software of choice for WordPress users. If any of you want to help the plugin work on top of backpress, patches welcome and I’m open to the idea. Otherwise, I’d wager 60% or more of the support questions regarding bbPress are incorporating it with WordPress. It’s been said in this topic already, but making it a plugin alleviates those issues, and still allows everyone to keep loving bbPress.
In all honesty, all this back and forth is tiring, and all it’s doing is taking the team of people that are here to help keep bbPress alive, and make us the enemy to the people that are just happy to see life again. That, and it’s taken our ability to communicate news to the bbPress community away from us, and instead forced us to try and put out this fire for the past 4 days.
Quite frankly, it all kinda sucks.
I get that the reality (for some of you) of switching bbPress to rely on WordPress instead of BackPress doesn’t sit well or even make sense, but I promise you it does. I might even have a trick that will help make the admin area a little more familiar. But 1.2 isn’t going to use BackPress anymore. Instead it’s going to use WordPress. bbPress itself is getting lighter, and we inherit all the eyes and updates that WordPress has had that BackPress hasn’t. That alone, if you ask me, is more than enough reason to be thankful for this move. If you need it super optimized, we’ll inherit all the caching plugins for WordPress. If you need bells and whistles, we get WP plugins. There is too much to gain, to not have bbPress be a WP plugin.
The existing standalone committers, are doing a great job already. There are very few trac tickets to work through in terms of bug fixes, and most of the enhancements would naturally get fixed by making it a plugin.
So… I want to say again, your passion and enthusiasm is something I want, and appreciate. If any of you are going to WordCamp Savannah, I’ll gladly discuss this over drinks and dinner. Whatever you need, I want to make it happen for you, but the name isn’t changing, Myself and the team are going to support the standalone with security updates as needed. Since I have commit access, I’m happy to commit fixes as needed because I’ve been trusted with that ability and I want everyone happy with a safe and functional piece of software, plugin or standalone.
I also, typed this out entirely on my iPad over the course of an hours worth of “leisure time.” if that doesn’t say you have my attention and commitment, I dunno what does.
Too much to address, but I’ll pick some points.
WordPress + BuddyPress + W3 Total Cache = less than 10 queries on a complete social network. If optimization is your cup of tea, there’s lots of ways you can achieve that. Core issues with WP should be directed over to those folks.
If you have a method to make it better, submit a patch. Then you can work your way up to being one of ‘those people’ that are making the decisions that you don’t agree with.
Pete’s status, isn’t any different than the way you all feel about things. If you can vent your frustrations, so can he.
Help me understand why we’re upset again.
1. bbPress 1.1 (standalone) – Still in active development
2. bbPress 1.2 (plugin) – Months before anyone should consider it stable, but you’re welcome to jump on the bandwagon early and help make it exactly the way you want it, side by side with Pete and myself, and anyone else that’s along for the ride.
Regarding # 1, what MORE do you want your lightweight standalone software to do? If you want it to be more efficient, spend some time walking through queries and making it that way. If you want something in the UI changed, do it; patch it; make it go, and I will review it, and commit it.
Regarding # 2, our goal is to have this usable ASAP as part of the 3.org initiatives, but I wouldn’t want anyone outside of that initiative using it for production until it’s released. I know we all like to live on the bleeding edge (I’ve always been that guy too) so now’s your time to start helping us weld things in from the very get-go. If you think the way we’ve doing it now is completely wrong, let us know and provide us a better way; I am happy to listen and make it right, because I want what you want; the best bbPress possible.
I think all this talk about Matt, and Automattic, should be redirected back towards Automattic the company, and not bbPress the open source software. I understand the two are perceived to be tightly integrated because mixing money and open source is mixing business with pleasure, and it’s always hard to explain or understand the difference.
I think the general negativism has taken its toll already, and it’s time to try to look at this glass as half full going forward. Please? Kindly?
Not trying to be a jerk here, but man… there is no end in sight here, and it just isn’t productive or helpful anymore. We need to tighten this ship up before it sinks itself. I say this, not from a “looking down” perspective, but from a “‘we’re in this together so let’s make the best of it” perspective.
Looking back through a lot of this discussion, I can see how some of my posts in here sound a little crass; and that isn’t my intention or goal.
So, let me apologize to each of you for that, if it came across that way.
My intentions with bbPress are to be helpful, provide guidance, be a sounding board, commit patches, and make the bbPress plugin something everyone here can be proud to use.
I don’t want anyone to fork anything; to feel left out, pushed out, forced out, any of that stuff. I very badly want everyone to feel comfort that we’re putting bodies and eyes on something that’s needed it for a long while, even if it isn’t exactly the way everyone agrees it should be.
You all have my word that I’ll be combing the trac, and helping things around and about as much as I can. My concentration is on bbPress the plugin, and BuddyPress, but any place else I can spread some bandwidth, I’m glad to do it. If anyone else wants to help out, I’m happy to have you aboard.
Pete Mall stepped up right away to help several months ago when this idea first cropped up in IRC and at a few WordCamps, so naturally he’s on board. The existing committers aren’t going anywhere, and everything is going to be A-okay.
All this has been said, and answered before. I just downloaded 2 plugins from the repo, and they worked fine enough. I am also of the opinion that this iteration of bbPress.org is the best looking and working one so far.
In Matt’s defense, I haven’t seen anything that Matt said qualify as berating, and the people he disagrees with, are people already on a verbal or moral offensive. Having been able to see through both sides of that looking glass, I can tell you with first hand experience that Matt is almost always on his A game, even if you don’t understand it at the time. But, this isn’t something I really want to get into because it just isn’t classy to do.
I get that everyone wants to hear from Matt and/or Jane. It sounds to me like you really want an apology more than you want anything else, because you’ve answered your own questions about how gaps in development have been filled in.
At the end of the day it’s free, open source software. Polarized or not, bbPress has a team now. If this can just be summed up as a years worth of pent up frustration coming out, I can understand that, but we’ve all been going at this for almost 3 days now, and I’d rather write code and fix stuff and make progress than rehash bbPress’s tumultuous existence.
P.S. – BuddyPress uses bbPress internally, so I’ve lurked for the past year+ and paid attention to the goings on. I just didn’t have the time or energy to have these discussions then. Now, I do, but there’s not much more I can say; it comes down to what we do about it. Like it or not, this is the hand we’ve been dealt… Time to make the best of it.
It’s hardly dismissive. Sorry you feel that way, but it’s meant to say that those of you that are upset, are also choosing not to hear what we’re saying anymore; you’re just mad and there’s not much I, or Matt, or anyone can do about that.
Over the past year, we’ve seen people request more features, people request less features, people want new leadership, people want to know the direction of the project, etc… The fact is that you can start developing the core right away by submitting patches in the trac. If you’re not doing that, then you’re not investing in the future of the platform, you’re investing in your own ventures which I’m happy to help with, but can’t be responsible for.
Sorry you feel it’s been badly handled, but to be quite fair, it’s partly because we’ve been directly answering everyone’s questions in this topic, and partly because this won’t happen for several months anyhow. This is big news to deliver, that’s why it hasn’t been delivered yet.
John, you can continue to spend as much money as you’d like on the future of bbPress, doing those exact same things the exact same way. If you’re satisfied with what you’ve invested in today, you will continue to be tomorrow. Nothing changes other than bbPress has a team of developers that are communicating to everyone now.
I’ve answered the ‘same name’ question a few times already, as have a few others. I mean nothing but the utmost respect when I say this, but there is nothing preventing anyone that’s upset here from developing bbPress core themselves and keeping up a stable branch if they see fit. It’s very much a meritocracy, so if you keep developing, you’ll keep climbing the ladder.
There’s also nothing wrong with forking it the same way WordPress did with b2 in the beginning. We’d rather have you on board, but if you just can’t and won’t be involved in the future bbPress plugin, then all I can do is keep repeating myself.
Yeah… We both basically missed each other when we started both of those. That was just a miscommunication and probably a blunder on my part. I’m not sure who did what first, but we’re going to merge those two and close one of them down soon.
The way it sits today, is that ‘bbdevel’ is and has been the existing standalone development blog, and I opened ‘bbpdevel’ back in January when I originally started writing plugin bbPress code, not knowing if there was an existing dev blog, because there weren’t really existing devs
. I got busy with work, and it sat for a while, and now it’s back in full swing.If you need a way to remember it, think ‘bbp’ means bbPress plugin maybe? It wasn’t originally intended to be like that, but might help. I basically mirrored wpdevel(WordPress) and bpdevel(BuddyPress)
Probably.
I just feel sorry for all the plugins developers…
No. Not probably, and not at all.
So far everyone’s managed to keep this pretty light and well mannered, and the easiest way to keep that pace is to not fuel any fires.
And what about non WordPress users?
Non WordPress uses can’t use VaultPress, or BuddyPress. As the plugin is being developed, if you have suggestions on how it might still be able to sit on top of BackPress, I’m open to building that into it also provided it doesn’t overly sacrifice performance in other areas.
There’s a lot of goals we hope to hit by doing this, one of which is allowing bbPress to be pocket sized and extensible from within WordPress, so that it can do other unique things that existing plugins have needed to jump through hurdles to achieve. Dedicated user forums, user groups, post/topic syncing, better BuddyPress integration, attachments, revision history, proper moderation, etc… If you don’t need those things, you can turn them off in WordPress all the same.
I know that my vote isn’t the popular one amongst the dedicated bbPress lovers, and there are lots of logistics to make this a smooth transition. With this initiative we have more people dedicated towards making this smooth and successful than bbPress has ever had in it’s 6 year history. That along with complete support from the original plugin author means it’s the next evolutionary step in bbPress’s journey.
I’ve been involved in too many hobbies to not know what it feels like when the version of something you love is discontinued, and something else replaces it that just ain’t the same. Cars, turntables, computers, cell phones, crock pots… You name it, I’ve dealt with the expiration of one thing, and moved on to the next.
The major difference with us and bbPress, is you all can help make the plugin do what you need it to by contributing code with patches. I couldn’t force Honda to bring back the del Sol CR-X if I tried.
My point is that 99% of people won’t know the difference.
If I choose to download and install a development version of Windows 8, I do so totally at my own risk. If I get burned by it, I can’t be mad at Microsoft.
Same rule applies to bbPress.
The development of the future plugin version does not impact what is available today. You either choose to be involved in that future, or you don’t.
Me saying (the plugin) is only in reference to conversations where it isn’t clear what we’re talking about. By the time anyone should realistically be trying out the plugin branch of code, we won’t need to use code words to talk about the differences.
One day hopefully in the not too distant future, we’ll flip this very site over to using the plugin without telling anyone, and when there is 0% difference in functionality and presentation, it will be time to start downloading it.
P.S. – I’m about 15 minutes off from committing they very primitive framework I have laid out, in case anyone wants to keep tabs.
So bbPress1.0.3 isn’t going to be released? What of 1.1?
My involvement in the 1.0.x/1.1 branches is limited, but if I had to guess (without checking) 1.0.3 will happen if there’s anything important to push out or there’s some kind of delay with 1.1, and 1.1 will happen before it’s a plugin for sure.
Who makes these decisions?
Honestly, whomever is in charge of the project sets the roadmap. If there’s no lead developer, then there’s no release schedule, because everything is just stagnant. I recently said something similar over on the BuddyPress blog regarding activity and how it only serves to perpetually foster more activity. Ultimately, I defer any major decisions about bbPress back to Matt, if anything simply because numero uno through numero un hundred are almost all his. If someone comes along and starts ripping up the trac and contributing patches and just overall making bbPress (the plugin) awesome, and for whatever reason I’m unable to continue to fulfill my responsibility, I’ll kindly step down and let someone else grab the reigns.
Leadership on an open source project is weird to be honest. The real world doesn’t usually work this way, but I think it’d be better off if it did sometimes. I like to refer to the Ubuntu leadership code of conduct because I think it makes a lot of sense, even if not everything directly relates. Also, leadership isn’t normally even an issue until it feels like there is no leader. If the leader is a total jerk, then chances are the platform would just die because people didn’t like that person. If there’s no leader at all, well… then you just feel abandoned and weird about it, like you should try to help, but don’t know who to ask or what to do. It’s like getting broken up with out of the blue… You’re unprepared and it sucks and you’re sad and bleh… No good.
1) None of us are worried about the name from a personal view point, it could all could be renamed Bob’s Super Duper Forum for all we care ;-] , only form the perspective of not confusing users.
Then bbPress it is.
2) How are we going to differentiate this to the current “bbPress Plugin” (we already get quite a few support requests for it)?
The goal is that no one will have to. If people want bbPress today, they download the current stable version same as always. When the plugin becomes available, it’s up to us to make a great UX that helps existing bbPress users through the update, and makes sure new users aren’t smacked with tons of legacy overhead. BuddyPress was able to get bbPress installed with a 1 click install; our goal should be the same.
3) How are we going to differentiate this from a “bbPress Plugin” that actually plugs in to bbPress?
A plugin is a plugin, but there is no such thing as a “plugin dependency” like there is for enqueuing CSS and JS in WordPress. The way we tackled that problem in BuddyPress is similar to what I’d like to do with bbPress, but obviously much lighter and built in from the start.
4) Are we confident this is crystal clear to those who aren’t native Engligh speakers?
Since I only speak English, I can’t answer this confidently. I’d like to hope we do a good enough job preparing everyone for this going forward, that anyone that cares enough to contribute does so and stays on top of things.
I’m not looking to back you into a corner with this bro, but an update on the terminology we should “try” and use so we don’t confuse our already dwingling audience would be real helpful at some stage in the future.
No worries
There will be better communication all around going forward to help ease peoples minds.I think alot of us can see and understand this. What would be great though, again at some stage, is if we were allowed some visability on what those advantages and disadvantages were (at a high level).
None of us were involved in nor had any visability of the decision, or conversation even, about bbPress becoming a plugin; so it’s a tad of a shell shock as to how this has come about. You’re a few steps ahead of us because of that, so any resistance you’re feeling isn’t actually against the project or yourself/Pete
bbPress, is always bbPress, and it’s up to the project leaders/managers/grand facilitators to be the guiding light. If that’s Matt, or Automattic, or whomever doesn’t really matter. Again, if it’s a matter of authority, then to me Matt is the authority. But, again, if someone starts ripping through code and contributing tons of patches, there’s plenty of room for advancement if you’re willing to put forth the effort into the core project.
It would be really great to see the requirement gathering, and weighing up of pros/cons etc. Especially after Jane’s famous https://wordpress.org/news/2009/12/setting-scope/ post about how more standard/practical/tangable/visable methodology would be used for these decisions.
That would really help us in terms of seeing where things are going; and help us get behind you and Pete on this project
Can’t speak for Jane, and not sure how famous the blog post is, but this is the beginning of that for bbPress. bbPress just has less eyes on it, so it suffers the same way BuddyPress does; passionate userbase, very little action taking place. bbPress development will start gaining speed in the coming days and weeks, and all of those blanks will start getting slowly filled in. If you or anyone else wants to start talking about how to fill those blanks in, start up dedicated topics in the forums so we can sticky them and go over it all.
You’ve a lot of goodwill from those of us who’ve seen your work and great attitude in these last 2 years mate. Sadly, there’s not alot left in the tank of most folks in regards to bbPress itself after Matt’s “We’ve done this before.” and then bolting for the door.
https://bbpress.org/forums/topic/whats-happening-with-bbpress/page/5#post-64410
This is only compunded by Jane announcing that bbpress would no longer be used for the WordPress forums before telling anyone involved. Not quite as bad as Matt telling people in his KeyNote speech that the community was “rough” and to use “differnt software instead of bbpress”, but not helpful either.
bbPress will still power the forums, just not as a standalone piece of software anymore once this is ready.
The trust is gone. But you’re definately the man to regain it
Cheers mate, much appreciated
As an aside, bbPress has always been the forum software for enthusiasts. It’s edgy, and sleek, and when you tell people what software is powering your forums and say “bbPress” you just kind of feel like a bad ass. I think that’s part of where the apprehension to adapt to it being a plugin comes from, because plugins by their general nature aren’t usually trusted to do what they should, the way they should. Also, because bbPress is such a niche project, we’re all used to living on the latest SVN revision, salivating at the prospect of waking up the next day and seeing all the neat new little things that changed since the night before.
The reality is that most normal people don’t do that, and that’s the person we need to cater to first and foremost.
bbPress (the plugin) should be considered toxic and unstable until we say go. Not unlike WordPressMU, it was forked out of WordPress, honed, and then merged back in. bbPress (the plugin) is a separate branch of code that does not intersect the existing code in anyway. Once it’s fully refactored and stable, we incorporate all the legacy bits that we need back in with a conditional to not require it if you’re not upgrading, and Bob’s your uncle.
At least, that’s the plan.
All understandable points. BuddyPress has recently gone through something similar since Andy has been concentrating on rolling out awesome new stuff for WordPress.com and I’ve been busy with client work. Both of us were at points where we weren’t concentrating directly on pushing the project forward, and that took us away from the usual support/communication role and more towards heavy development and project management.
Community and communication are both important, and we’ve admittedly been lacking on both platforms leaving things feel like they’re in a little bit of a limbo state. For people already using either project, it doesn’t help you sleep at night; and it doesn’t exactly make for a happy welcome to newcomers either. It wasn’t intentional, but I think the worst is behind us now and we can concentrate on building some forward momentum.
For bbPress specifically, there is a little more history involved. It it touches so many individual pieces of the .org structure that have always been intricately balanced to work together; namely the individual plugin and theme repositories. They rely heavily on the svelteness of bbPress to function the way they do.
When the idea of making bbPress a plugin was first seriously considered (over a year ago?) I think I felt the same way as some of you do now. I felt bbPress needed to stand tall and be it’s own person and go out and make something of itself like a good young adult should. My involvement in BuddyPress and my experience with WordPress over the past few years has enlightened me to how simple of a plugin bbPress can really be, particularly now that BuddyPress can offer all of the other bits and pieces that someone might normally want or expect from forum software.
With that said, bbPress is going to be a plugin for WordPress going forward. The name is staying the same, as much as I know that pains some of you to hear. There are lots of reasons to keep it the way it is because we all love it and appreciate it, but there is more to gain by it being a plugin with where WordPress is today. (…no dagger to the heart intended…)
I think the most important thing that will come from an ‘official’ announcement (that I’ll include here briefly now) is that the top priority for this next chapter in bbPress is migrating/importing/exporting be 100% no-more-than-5-clicks simple to do. As a plugin author myself, the close second priority is having a clear resource for converting plugins.
I typically try to under promise and over deliver, so I’m approaching bbPress the same way. Am I super genius that knows the insides and outsides of bbPress and BackPress 100% and can recite lines of code like song lyrics or poetry? Nope. But I do know plugins, and extending WordPress safely and effectively, and refactoring, and bulletin board software, and how communicating with and through software works for both machines and people.
Most importantly, I know I really want bbPress to stay kickass.
I’ll be posting something all official sounding soon (as in tonight) but Kevin, can’t say I received an email from you; if I did it only went ignored because I didn’t see it. My apologies for lack of communication and I’ll do better going forward. Check my Gravatar for ten confirmed methods to track me down.
On the flip side, I’m excited that people still care about there being a plugin branch considering the ups and downs bbPress has gone through over the past year or two.
At the sake of sounding like a politician, I’m personally committed to making bbPress great in whatever form it takes, because it (along with WordPress and BuddyPress) put food on my table and keep a roof over my head. It’s been like that for the past two years, and I’d like to maintain that status for as far into the foreseeable future as I can. If I was self-employed or employed by Automattic, it wouldn’t change the way I intend to be involved and help shape bbPress’s future.
I know it’s been a rough and tumble life for bbPress, and thankfully all of us want to change that.
Be back in a bit to keep up this convo and look forward to more comments, feedback, gripes, general criticism, and cooking tips if you have any.
Hey Matt!
Without too much detail, I’ve been neck deep in theme development, bug patching, code re-factoring and clean-up since the Windows 3.11 and Visual Basic 3.0 days. I’ve been interested in making bbPress be better integrated with WordPress for probably a year or so now? I was a long time phpBB2.0 junkie, and moved to WordPress because I was frustrated at how forcibly linear typical forum software is. When I fell in love with the WordPress way, I quickly found bbPress, and expected it to include all of the features that BuddyPress now does, hence my shift in that direction.
I’d like to help restyle bbpress.org, maybe bring it a little more in line with the other Automattic websites. There’s no doubt that bbPress needs some TLC in the codex and source-code documentation areas too, and I have recent experience absorbing the WP Code Standards from working under Andy with BuddyPress.
Right now my focus is 100% BuddyPress, but since you asked… I’d love to be more involved in all of the WP projects and communities if there’s opportunity.
