[chrishajer]

ma.tt says:

We just had our first ever IRC meetup for the new bbPress, here are the logs, sorry if they’re a little rough. If you’d like to join in next time check out the Getting Involved page.

http://bbpress.org/blog/2009/12/2009-12-09-meetup/

[citizenkeith]

I would rather bbPress and WordPress be separate. Why go to the trouble of adding all that WordPress bloat to bbPress when I just want a good simple forum?? Sounds to me like the developers want to take a shortcut and avoid the integration issues by merging the two. I don’t think that’s a very good idea…

[buddha-trance]

I would also prefer if bbPress and WordPress stay separate. That would make bbPress much more powerful.

What we need for new users is very clear instructions on how to integrate. The login cookies was the nightmare part when I first set it up, because of so many different threads and inconsistent advice on how to do it, so it became a trial and error thing, with a great loss of time. The same could be done with clear instructions on how to integrate a WP matching theme. If all the steps are defined clearly, and there is a codex like WP has, having bbPress as a standalone would allow for a lot more customization and expandability than if it were a plugin. Many would rather use certain plugins on WP, and others on bbPress, without bloating either one (and possibly avoid plugin conflicts between the two).

[Jim R]

I moved from an SMF forum, using SSI to distribute content through a handful of PHP pages. Making any theme changes was a nightmare. I was introduced to WordPress in the summer and loved it. I spent a month looking for a good forum that I obviously wanted integrated, but that was not easy. I found bbPress and was very disappointed it wasn’t more easily integrated. In fact, in the beginning, I couldn’t get it to work.

(side note) GerikG was one who helped me a lot, and the odd thing was I was doing everything properly, but as we troubleshot the issues, we found a simple mistake, there can’t be a www. in the URL’s. (/side noate)

I’m four months into WordPress, and I have switched forums twice. I came back to bbPress with the assumption it would eventually be more integrated with WP.

To me, someone who isn’t much on the coding side but understands it a little, the WP / bbPress integration isn’t an issue of whether it’s a plug-in or separate. It must be about these features right out of the box:

1) Unified login.

2) Theme / navigation integration

3) Post / Tag synchronization

4) Widget integration

As a code novice, I could never understand how these issues weren’t present out of the box. (Much the same as I don’t see how WPMU could be born separate from WP code.) It’s not like the people who designed these products are dumb, so maybe there was a reason for it that made sense to them, but as someone coming into it just never made sense.

Other things it should include, and to my understanding this would be inherent in any PHP based system, the ability to handle WP conditional and template tags. Admin integration would be nice as an option. In my case, I would use it. I know the plug-in makes it possible, but a simple setting would ask, “Would you like to use bbPress admin panel in your WP admin panel?” That would come with an obvious explanation of what bbPress is.

All of that said, without a strong opinion on plug-in vs. stand alone, if the above features are ready to go out of the box, I’m not sure why it couldn’t remain stand alone. But again, I’m a complete code novice.

I mean my gosh, with the PHP widget and Widget Context, I can do just about anything to my WP pages. It’s very nice. No reason bbPress can’t be that simple too….for users. (wink)

[buddha-trance]

there can’t be a www. in the URL’s

I’ve seen this mentioned before. Am I missing something? Because I do have www with no problems.

[kevinjohngallagher]

Regardless of which route BBpress takes, the one thing i think this project needs, and has needed for almost 2 years now, is a project manager.

the whole 0.9 > 1.02a > 1.06a > RC1 was handled so badly its unreal. Months of “stop asking, check Trac” only for Trac to be 6 months out of date, made the whole thing a shambles.

[Olympus]

Theme integration can still be performed without having to turn bbPress into a plugin, and in fact, it can be done via a simple CSS trick ( that means that the default CSS of bbPress should be rewritten so that it becomes more flexible, and every element ( forum tables, forms etc… ) should act as “objects” which can be automatically stretched vertically independently of their parents or I don’t know, where the parents will be objects in the WP stylesheet ) . So again, for theme integration, NO NEED TO TURN BBPRESS INTO A PLUGIN, because it’s just a CSS issue ( + little PHP coding, nothing serious ) !

Connecting the Admin sides of WP and bbPress ? This can be easily done via an OPTIONAL plugin ( or via XML-RPC calls, so that you can handle your bbPress forum even if it isn’t in the same host ) .

Turning bbPress into a plugin would be a nightmare, think of all the unnecessary WP calls … Why did I choose bbPress again ? To have a light forum or to have TWO frameworks ( WordPress and bbPress ) + unnecessary calls and files ?

The reason I choose bbPress at the beginning ( 3~4 years ago ) is because it’s from the creators of WordPress, so I hoped that it will be as easy to customize as WordPress, and that’s what I got ( even though, at the beginning it was really hard for me because I had to guess the function names, as there’s no Codex for bbPress ) and I’m very satisfied . I had the choice between bbPress, PunBB and Vanilla ( the lightest forums out there, and at the time, Vanilla had a greater number of plugins than bbPress ), but I stick with bbPress because it’s the easiest one to customize . So for those who think that bbPress can’t compete in the light forums market, you’re wrong !

[Jim R]

@buddha,

I’ve seen this mentioned before. Am I missing something? Because I do have www with no problems.

Once I removed the www from the settings, it all worked.

[buddha-trance]

@Jim R – I see, thanks for the info. Can be helpful for future reference.

@Olympus – I agree about the theme integration.

With clear instructions it’s really easy. With a code rewrite, the templates could use the same header and footer calls used to build wp themes, and put the hot tags in a sidebar call.

Also, with deep integration, the theme works instantly, except that it seems to be discouraged in the installation instructions because of the heavier load. But if bbPress turns into a plugin, wouldn’t the end result (and load) be the same as in deep integration?

Another option, is to create an “A list” section in the WP themes directory for those themes that already come with bbPress-ready templates. This could encourage theme developers to add those files with a few simple tweaks, and have their themes be the “complete package”. A member of this forum arpowers has done this: https://bbpress.org/forums/topic/new-theme-for-bbpress

If bbPress turns into a plugin, would it be expandable through extra “modules” (the current plugins)? How would one customize the capabilities?

[zambrovski]

I’m new to bbpress. In fact I’m on my first installation and I like to see the development.

I think the way the systems are now is good. They should remain separated. In the same time, it makes sence to develop exactly two plugins for the integration: one for WordPress and one for BBPress. The existence of many plugins for the “integration” (SSO, funcational/feature, admin) makes it confusing.

The most important thing missing is API documentation and Theme-Zoo.

Functional features I miss would be:

– wigdet support

– appearance management / editor (see WP)

[Ipstenu (Mika Epstein)]

Also, with deep integration, the theme works instantly, except that it seems to be discouraged in the installation instructions because of the heavier load. But if bbPress turns into a plugin, wouldn’t the end result (and load) be the same as in deep integration?

Yes and no. As it is now, deep integration with standalone bbPress duplicates many functions included in WordPress. The load gets larger becuase you’re doing the same thing multiple ways, multiple times.

If bbPress was a plugin, one would presume that instead of duplicating WP functions, it would instead utilize them.

Mind you, I’m neither pro-nor-anti plugin, I’m just accepting that was the decision, and wanting to make the move the easiest Same as the whole WP -> WPMU eventuality. It’ll happen, regardless of my opinion, it can be made to work, so let’s make it work! (tm Tim Gunn).

[Olympus]

There’s no need for deep integration either : you just make bbPress work with the WordPress stylesheet .

@zambrovski : the widgets support can be done using hooks, which are already supported by bbPress . So the UI side ( adding “widgets” from the admin area for example ) is the only thing needed here .

And no @ipstenu, no decision is taken now as I can see in the IRC discussion, the plugin thing was just an idea that we have to discuss, not a final decision . And because I’m worried about the future of bbPress ( which I’m planning to use for a future medium size project ), it is my right to say no !

Some people also invested a lot in bbPress ( energy or money ), and trusted the bbPress team, so why make this big and unexpected change to bbPress ?

[Ipstenu (Mika Epstein)]

I’m assuming (based on Matt’s leanings) that he would like it to be a plugin and accepting that as probably the way it’ll go. A gross assumption, but the chat sounded rather pro-plugin to me. Could be wrong!

There’s no need for deep integration either : you just make bbPress work with the WordPress stylesheet .

Which is what I did, but it begs the question: Why?

If BuddyPress can make it work with one (two) clicks to integrate login and theme, why can’t WordPress and bbPress? Integration means I don’t have to edit two places if I want to modify my theme which, with a superficially ‘integrated’ WP, BB, Wiki and gallery, is much nicer! One less thing to do!

Some people also invested a lot in bbPress ( energy or money ), and trusted the bbPress team, so why make this big and unexpected change to bbPress ?

… I don’t see what that has to do with the price of rice. We’ve all invested time and money in bbPress, WordPress and a hundred other free, open-source applications. If bbPress ‘belongs’ to Akismet, then it’s their right to make the changes they feel would make the software more supportable and usable. They don’t have to ask us anything, but there they are, being good peoples, asking our feelings on the matter. They’re well within their rights to say we’re all fools and do what they want.

And bbPress is GPL open source, so unless I’m mistaken, you can port it to your own forum app. As long as you stay in the GPL too.

[Jim R]

Deep integration has never worked with my theme, and I’ve had a couple within this topic look at it.

[buddha-trance]

@ipstenu – I see… if there is duplication with deep integration, then as a plugin it would be lighter. I was also under the impression that a decision in this direction has been taken already, looking at the IRC chat…

I’ll continue to use, and love, bbPress regardless (and already use WP), though I’d prefer that it stayed as a standalone, because I think it has more potential this way, and it continues to cater also to those who are not interested in having to run WP at the same time. It is fair that opinions against the plugin idea be expressed and that Automattic becomes aware of the reasons behind them. This will allow for a better final decision.

It could be that the plugin idea is an impulsive one, based on the long lapse suffered by bbPress, and lack of a “grand” vision for this platform… or maybe they know what they are doing and the direction to take is to create an extra feature for WP, rather than a separate platform. In the end, of course, it’s up to Automattic.

Obviously, the decision is based on the potential number of new users. And the numbers increase if the platform is easy to use (a one click deal) and it integrates seamlessly with the blog. Though a plugin would deliver all this, it would also take away from a different crowd and future potential, and maybe there is a compromise. Some solution offering the one click deal like BuddyPress, while at the same time being able to run as a standalone and cater to the non-WP users who just want a forum. I don’t know if that is technically possible to achieve.

If theme integration is the only reason for bbPress to become a plugin, maybe there are alternatives, like something similar to the embed plugin https://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/embed-bbpress/, also mentioned in the IRC chat. One could build on that idea… and bbPress can be run as a standalone for those who choose to do so.

Maybe that is not the only reason, and the way things unfold will be (catered strictly to WP users + goodbye bbPress plugin developers and community):

WP(MUmerge) –> platform

BuddyPress –> plugin

bbPress –> plugin

[gerikg]

I hate to bring up this post again but what happened to “the next meetup on IRC will be Wednesday 16 December 2100 GMT irc.freenode.net #bbpress” did that happen?

[Markus Pezold]

Hi Gerikg,

Matt unfortunately missed the IRC Meetup – look here in the bbPress blog:

https://bbpress.org/blog/2009/12/my-bad/

This Wednesday will be the next meeting … at 21:00

Greetz

Markus

[gerikg]

Thanks!

Wow, I never paid attention to the “blog” section. Same discussion that’s going on here.

I think just pulling one of the top requests out of a hat and just start working instead of the constant babble. I think the end result will be the users will be happy even if they didn’t vote on it. I really wish I can help aside from just requesting stuff. I don’t know PHP just have ideas.

That’s 1600 EST right or am I doing it wrong?

[chrishajer]

It is 2100 GMT which is 4:00 PM Eastern this week, on Wednesday.