We just had our first ever IRC meetup for the new bbPress, here are the logs, sorry if they’re a little rough. If you’d like to join in next time check out the Getting Involved page.

[13:01] <photomatt_sf> alrighty -- <meetup>
[13:01] <hajii> dan milward == wp-ecommerce
[13:01] <Ryan_> San is the WP e-Commerce developer
[13:01] <Ryan_> *San = Dan
[13:02] <Michael_Rockett> I see - thanks :)
[13:02] <jjj> What's the first topic on the list of things to tackle?
[13:02] <photomatt_sf> well first up could everyone who's present introduce themselves?
[13:03] <jjj> John James Jacoby - Core contributor for BuddyPress from Miami, FL
[13:03] <Ryan_> Ryan Hellyer from PixoPoint.com. I don't have a lot of experience with bbPress but made a theme generator for it about a year ago. It's never worked as well as I'd like and I'm working on a new improved version now.
[13:03] <hajii> chrishajer, bbpress.org moderator
[13:03] <photomatt_sf> I'm Matt Mullenweg, and I'm working on bbPress.org-the-website and hope to help organize some new momentum for the core software
[13:03] <justintadlock> Justin Tadlock here. You know, of justintadlock.com fame, of course.
[13:03] <hajii> of course
[13:03] <hajii> :D
[13:03] <photomatt_sf> haha
[13:03] <pmall> Pete Mall - WordPress puts food on my table
[13:03] <Michael_Rockett> I'm Michael - pretty much new to bbPress. I'd like to contribute any any way I can - preferably in the visual/design area. My coding knowldge is not good enough to do much more. I will, however, learn in the future. :)
[13:03] <andrewpowers> hey I've seen your site :D
[13:04] <jjj> Justin who?
[13:04] <andrewpowers> (justintadlock)
[13:04] <tom_> Tom de Bruin - been using bbPress for about a year.
[13:04] <jjj> ;)
[13:04] <benhuson> Ben Huson from Camber, UK. Use WordPress a lot to develop bespoke sites - plugins and themes. Implemented bbPress a couple of times.
[13:04] <hajii> michael rockett are you Michael888 at bbpress.org?
[13:04] <Michael_Rockett> @Ryan_: Sounds interesting - I'd love to see the developments of that. :)
[13:04] <andrewpowers> Andrew Powers from Pagelines
[13:04] <Michael_Rockett> @hajii: Yes I am :)
[13:04] <hajii> 10:4
[13:04] <andrewpowers> how the heck do you create link?
[13:05] <photomatt_sf> alrighty, anyone else want to jump in?
[13:05] <Ryan_> @Michael - http://pixopoint.com/products/bbpress-forum-theme-generator/
[13:05] <andrewpowers> "Everything you need to know about WordPress 2.9’s post image feature
[13:05] <andrewpowers> Everything you need to know about WordPress 2.9’s post image feature" Good article Justin
[13:05] <jjj> photomatt_sf, I'd like to talk about whether to merge into WP or keep a separate platform.
[13:06] <Michael_Rockett> @Ryan_: Very nice - I will look at it in the morning. :) Thanks and good work, great site. :)
[13:06] <jjj> Seems there's pros/cons in both directions, and WP can't completely facilitate this until the post-types are readily available.
[13:06] <photomatt_sf> okay, let's make that the first topic
[13:06] <photomatt_sf> and give it a time limit of until 1:20 as a hard break
[13:06] <hajii> 21:20 :D
[13:07] <Ryan_> I don't think there is a problem with post-types, the standard WP post types could be used until more suitable ones are available (bearing in mind I'm somewhat of a PHP moron)
[13:07] <justintadlock> I'm all for making bbPress a plugin and using a "forum" post type. We could use this as a launchpad to see what we need in WP to make post types work better.
[13:07] <Ryan_> Then convert everthing over when most suitable post type setup is available.
[13:07] <hajii> I will speak from the perspective of people. new people, coming to bbpress.org, since I see all the questions
[13:07] <jjj> Ryan_, the problem would be with categorizing the data and making sure WP doesn't think topics are posts.
[13:07] <photomatt_sf> my opinion: let's put it on the roadmap
[13:07] <jjj> ^topics are blog posts
[13:07] <photomatt_sf> I think to get things moving we should focus on a 1.1
[13:07] <Michael_Rockett> I think that bbPress should be available both as a standalone package (for those who do not use WP, but want a forum on an already established site) as well as a plugin/merge-package for WP.
[13:08] <jjj> photomatt_sf, good strategy
[13:08] <photomatt_sf> that fixes current problems, and maybe adds one hook feature like email notifications
[13:08] <photomatt_sf> show the community bbPress is still alive
[13:08] <photomatt_sf> and helps existing users
[13:08] <hajii> many/most people want integration, and to them, that means they want the theme to look the same, and they want users to log in one time, and they want access to WordPress function (but that's only because they aren't running as a plugin)
[13:08] <photomatt_sf> then 1.2 we can focus on new folks, which to me the best strategy is WP integration
[13:08] <tom_> and we need a 'lost username' feature in 1.1
[13:09] <hajii> I can count on one hand the number of people who want a /standalone/ forum, separate from wordpress
[13:09] <andrewpowers> Are people who aren't using WordPress really using BBpress for their sites?
[13:09] <Ryan_> @Michael_Rockett - If bbPress were a plugin, it could still be used purely for standalone forums, it would just happen to be powerwed by WordPress
[13:09] <photomatt_sf> we can do much better integration without redoing all the data structure
[13:09] <photomatt_sf> so I don't know if we should "couple" those tasks
[13:09] <photomatt_sf> (btw we'll do a hard stop for the meetup at 2pm)
[13:09] <Ryan_> I worked on a bbPress site recently which was not using WordPress at all. But that's not really a problem since they could just upgrade to a WP bbPress plugin when/if it became avaialble.
[13:10] <justintadlock> @Ryan_ Agreed. The few folks that actually use it as standalone forums typically have things such as site pages too.
[13:10] <andrewpowers> Could we think about a WP plugin that would inject some BBPress specific information into a WP header?
[13:10] <benhuson> I mentioned in email the possibility to have a checkbox on WordPress install which could essentially auto-install the bbPress plugin - that would esssentially be a bbPress install. Possibility?
[13:10] <andrewpowers> We've had to hack our WP themes to account for being integrated with BBpress
[13:10] <hajii> I would vote for plugin, so you can leverage the themes that are already done. People don't want to make their own themes, they want to use WordPress themes that are already out there
[13:11] <photomatt_sf> andrewpowers: yep
[13:11] <Ryan_> There's a lot of stuff in WordPress which would automatically become available with no effort if the two were combined.
[13:11] <photomatt_sf> that's more along the lines of my [bbpress] shortcode idea
[13:11] <hajii> shortcodes for bbpress would be great
[13:11] <photomatt_sf> [bbpress tag="akismet-plugin"]
[13:11] <benhuson> @hajii - Yes, I think being able to benefit from existing wordpress theme would be a huge asset
[13:11] <photomatt_sf> [bbpress forum="newbies"]
[13:11] <andrewpowers> It would be a simple plugin to build
[13:11] <jjj> Without going off topic too much, why did bbpress come about in the first place photomatt_sf? Since it is so similar to WP, what was the motivation? Why not just have it be part of WP in the first place? Easier to develop as a standalone maybe?
[13:11] Nightgunner5 Agrees with photomatt_sf's bbpress idea
[13:11] <Michael_Rockett> @Ryan_: Considering that there is plenty integration with most WP and bbPress users, you're right. Matt, what do you think the chances of a standalone forum existing as well as a WP merger?
[13:11] <photomatt_sf> hajii: to clarify, I'm not saying shortcodes for bbPress, but a bbPress shortcode for WP
[13:11] <justintadlock> I've got tons of users that want to use bbPress, but they want to be able to do all the same stuff as they do with WP (theme-wise).
[13:12] <photomatt_sf> this assumes that you can drop bbP as a plugin in WP
[13:12] <tom_> A unified user profile page is required, with forum history, etc.
[13:12] <hajii> right, I knew and should have said that
[13:12] <jjj> tom_, that's where BuddyPress probably comes in.
[13:12] <Ryan_> @MichaelRockett - why would you want a standalone system? Once merged, WP would be the standalone system, you would just need a plugin to convert it.
[13:12] <Nightgunner5> What if bbPress would work both ways - a standalone forum and a plugin?
[13:12] <photomatt_sf> tom_: that's an interesting question -- do we need profiles to be a dependency?
[13:12] <jjj> I think when people hear forum, they assume some kind of profile system exists.
[13:13] <pmall> jjj: +!
[13:13] <CIA-14> bbPress Plugins: Nightgunner5 * r2573 /bbpress-moderation-suite/ (7 files in 5 dirs): Release 0.1-rc1. It's been forever since I said I would. Props Ben (not me) - http://wp.me/pvLZ6-M#comment-83
[13:13] <justintadlock> Why not have a specific "user.php" template that handles profiles?
[13:13] <Ryan_> It would be weird if you were just installing WordPress to use as a forum and you had to add a shortcode just to make a forum.
[13:13] <photomatt_sf> me too, but I look at my profile usually purely for tracking things I've participated in
[13:13] <Nightgunner5> We have profile.php
[13:13] <photomatt_sf> if I got email notifications I probably wouldn't look at it at all
[13:13] <photomatt_sf> all of the information in a profile could be a 100px square popup
[13:14] <Ryan_> Ick, popups are awful!
[13:14] <jjj> But other forum software use profiles as a way to quickly see their activity on the site, and some basic info about who they are.
[13:14] <Michael_Rockett> @Ryan_: There are some, like me, who want to have a standalone community forum.
[13:14] <Ryan_> It would need to work just like other forum softwares IMO.
[13:14] <justintadlock> @Nightgunner5 - And WP uses author.php, so users have two different pages, essentially.
[13:14] <hajii> @Ryan_ it would be weird, but right now bbPress meets the needs of like 1% of users instead of 99%. as a plugin I think it would meet more, at least based on feedback at bbpress.org
[13:14] <jjj> Not just from MY perspective, but me looking at another user, their reputation, time registered, etc...
[13:14] <photomatt_sf> Ryan_: really? I like how intensedebate and disqus do it
[13:15] <Nightgunner5> justintadlock: WP author.php shows the posts from the blog, bb profile.php shows topics, posts, and general information
[13:15] <hajii> I like @justintadlock's idea for using page templates
[13:15] * DJPaul (n=DJPaul@host86-161-186-114.range86-161.btcentralplus.com) has joined #bbpress
[13:15] <Ryan_> Intense debate and Disquis are not very popular for a reason. Plus there needs to be a way for users to display it as per other forums.
[13:16] <Ryan_> Suggestion: (1) Install WP; (2) Install bbPress plugin; (3) user choose either to turn entire WP install into a big fat forum OR uses a shortcode.
[13:16] <photomatt_sf> Ryan_: they're more popular than bbPress right now
[13:16] <hajii> @rynan, that's interesting
[13:16] <hajii> would that #3 come after installing the plugin?
[13:16] <jjj> ryan_, I can't think of an instance where I've ever needed either of those though. Not to say I couldn't make a reason.
[13:16] <justintadlock> @Nightgunner5 - Only if you've written posts. Themes handle how this information is displayed for users without posts as well.
[13:16] * aufumy (n=anonymou@d75-157-133-111.bchsia.telus.net) has joined #bbpress
[13:17] <Ryan_> I think most themers will get grumpy if they can't style their profile pages how they like though. Although I guess you could fairly easily custom build everything into the theme and bypass the built in popup idea.
[13:17] <Michael_Rockett> This is why we should leave options open. Word would need to get out that bbPress is available as a standablone product, whilst it can be downloaded as a plugin for WP.
[13:17] <hajii> I disagree with standalone
[13:17] <Michael_Rockett> Completely?
[13:17] <hajii> completely disagree
[13:17] <andrewpowers> Me too.
[13:17] <andrewpowers> I agree with Chris
[13:17] <hajii> I think it should be an awesome plugin
[13:18] <hajii> what are the top 3 complaints from people coming to bbPress?
[13:18] <hajii> not developers, users
[13:18] <Ryan_> Wouldn't the standalone just be WordPress with a plugin auto-activated? That would be like downloading BuddyPress already packaged with WordPress.
[13:18] <hajii> ahh, interesting
[13:18] <photomatt_sf> hajii: there are two audiences, people we have now, and people who have never considered us
[13:18] <Ryan_> @Haijj - lack of features.
[13:18] <andrewpowers> Leverage WPs momentum.
[13:18] <photomatt_sf> the reason I made bbPress and WP separate
[13:18] <jjj> I don't think it's a good idea to force any one platform to require the others.
[13:18] <Ryan_> However, lack of features is a feature in itself. And many of those features already come pre-packaged with WP.
[13:19] <photomatt_sf> was at the time WP just powered part of your site
[13:19] <hajii> @Ryan, that's a good one too. Nothing bundled, everything plugin, and plugin dev has stopped
[13:19] <justintadlock> @hajii - Complaints from bbPress users: 1) No theme integration. 2) No email option for threads (though I point out the RSS feed). 3) Want to use WP functionality such as widgets.
[13:19] <photomatt_sf> so you'd have different software on different parts
[13:19] <tom_> realistically there's a lot of standalone forums out there, why try and take market share from them when the main selling feature is its WP integration?
[13:19] <andrewpowers> There is no point in competing with the well-developed *stand-alone* forums
[13:19] <jjj> photomatt_sf, I still like that idea the best.
[13:19] <photomatt_sf> now people use WP for their entire domain, and want everything to plug in without hacking around
[13:19] <hajii> @jjj - which?
[13:19] <photomatt_sf> even something as simple as google analytics code, people use a plugin to put it in their theme
[13:19] <hajii> you can have a blog and a site now, with WordPress
[13:19] <photomatt_sf> because that means they can switch themes without having to re-code everything
[13:20] <pmall> 1:20
[13:20] <photomatt_sf> thanks pmall
[13:20] <photomatt_sf> to close I think everyone should check out
[13:20] <hajii> I agree, main selling point is integration with WordPress
[13:20] <Michael_Rockett> @tom_: You have a strong point. It's probably best to stick with the merger.
[13:20] <photomatt_sf> our competition in the WP piece
[13:20] <photomatt_sf> which is simple:press
[13:21] <andrewpowers> Full agreement with Chris
[13:21] <photomatt_sf> http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/tags/forum
[13:21] <Ryan_> SimplePress is a good idea, unfortunately poorly executed :(
[13:21] <photomatt_sf> huh, haven't seen this until just now: http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/embed-bbpress/
[13:21] <hajii> @Ryah_ +1, execution
[13:21] <andrewpowers> simplepress isn't great.
[13:21] <justintadlock> SimplePress is really no competition if bbPress becomes a plugin.
[13:21] <photomatt_sf> http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/wpforum/
[13:22] <photomatt_sf> justintadlock: agreed, but today the integration pieces you point out are more important to people
[13:22] <photomatt_sf> I meet folks all the time that use one of the embedded plugins instead af bbPress for that reason alone
[13:22] <justintadlock> Me too.
[13:22] <pmall> that is why bbPress needs to be a plugin
[13:22] <photomatt_sf> but let's move on
[13:23] <photomatt_sf> I have a topic: bbpress.org
[13:23] <hajii> function ebb_activate_shortcode() { add_shortcode( 'EmbedBBpress', 'ebb_embeding_the_object' ); }
[13:23] <photomatt_sf> I know a redesign will sex it up and everyone wants that
[13:23] <photomatt_sf> but what do you guys is most important *functionality-wise* to make it more effective
[13:23] <justintadlock> bbPress.org - We need a Codex first.
[13:23] <hajii> how about making it accurate?
[13:23] <jjj> +1 codex
[13:23] <Nightgunner5> Codex
[13:23] <andrewpowers> Documentation
[13:23] <pmall> agreed... the current look and feel is 'dated' -> scraems like a dead project
[13:24] <Ryan_> If bbPress becomes a WP plugin, then perhaps the plugins should be stored in the WP plugin repo?
[13:24] <tom_> there needs ot be very clear distinction about which plugins work in 0.9 and 1.0
[13:24] <hajii> I don't mind the look so much, but the information is inaccurate
[13:24] <justintadlock> Second, updated design.
[13:24] <Michael_Rockett> I think that the front page should be more interactive. +Themes browser. :)
[13:24] <photomatt_sf> justintadlock: when you say codex, is the important bit that we use mediawiki like WP or that we have lots of people editing it, or that ANYONE can edit it
[13:24] <pmall> model it after wp.org?
[13:24] * nicolagreco (n=nicolagr@151.54.95.92) has joined #bbpress
[13:24] <photomatt_sf> (because we hate and struggle with mediawiki on wp.org)
[13:24] <Nightgunner5> Ryan_: BuddyPress has its own repository
[13:24] <Ryan_> @Nightgunner5 - Good point.
[13:24] <Michael_Rockett> @pmall: I have already designed something like that - problem is that wp.org will change soon and bbPress should not look like something old. Matt pointed this out in our emails.
[13:24] <jjj> More powerful search is a good functionality for bbPress to have also.
[13:25] <Nightgunner5> photomatt_sf: I think the BuddyPress codex is a nice example of what it should be
[13:25] <hajii> I think more information and accurate information is more important than sprucing up design
[13:25] <andrewpowers> what is the best 'wiki' software out there?
[13:25] <photomatt_sf> bbpress.org is just a WP site, so trusted people could be give access to edit pages
[13:25] <justintadlock> I like how anyone can edit it as on WP, but I'm all for using a different system. There at least needs to be a way for some people to update the documentation.
[13:25] <Ryan_> Perhaps use Instinct.co.nz's WP Wiki plugin instead?
[13:25] <hajii> Michael888 - I liked your design but understand the part about wp.org going with a new design
[13:25] <jjj> Custom post-types will spice up the ability to use WordPress as a Wiki also.
[13:25] <justintadlock> I think documentation is the worst aspect of the entire project right now, so any ideas in that direction would be fine.
[13:26] <jjj> With custom taxonomy clouds and categories to relate the data.
[13:26] <hajii> +! @justintadlock
[13:26] <Michael_Rockett> @hajii: Matt mentioned something about it in the emails.
[13:26] <Nightgunner5> photomatt_sf: Why not have a WP blog integrated with the wp/bb/trac user system?
[13:26] <hajii> +1
[13:26] <photomatt_sf> we don't need a wiki plugin though if there's just a few of us working on it and talking on bbdev or forums about it
[13:26] <hajii> I don't think wiki is a good idea
[13:26] <hajii> for bbpress.org
[13:27] <Michael_Rockett> Niether do I - maybe when it's bigger and more popular.
[13:27] <Ryan_> If the WP codex is not the preferred route to doing things. Then maybe bbPress.org could be used as the testing ground for a new system?
[13:27] <andrewpowers> how do you stay on top of it without a wiki?
[13:27] <photomatt_sf> perhaps a good way to couch it is -- who wants to be on the documentation team?
[13:27] <jjj> codex.buddypress.org just uses another MU blog.
[13:27] <tom_> i would do some documentation.
[13:27] <Ryan_> If not a Wiki, then how do we improve documentation? Perhaps write a blog post requesting article submissions?
[13:27] <pmall> photomatt_sf: I'll volunteer
[13:28] <justintadlock> I'll be a part of the documentation team.
[13:28] <nicolagreco> i think the bp.org site is a good solution for the bb site
[13:28] <Nightgunner5> photomatt_sf: Me too
[13:28] <Ryan_> @Nicola - BuddyPress.org or bbPress.org?
[13:28] <photomatt_sf> that sounds like a good team: Tom39Away, pmall, justintadlock, and Nightgunner5
[13:28] <hajii> better than one person, I think
[13:28] <Tom39Away> uh?
[13:28] <Michael_Rockett> I can probably get involved with that - though not 'in-too-deep'
[13:29] <photomatt_sf> Tom39Away: sorry meant tom_
[13:29] <nicolagreco> the buddypress site is a good example i meant
[13:29] <hajii> he was PUSHED
[13:29] <hajii> heh
[13:29] <Michael_Rockett> 1:10 :)
[13:29] <photomatt_sf> doc team: I can give you guys access to the site
[13:29] <photomatt_sf> there are no access controls beyond built-in WP stuff yet
[13:29] <photomatt_sf> so please don't put porn everywhere :)
[13:29] <nicolagreco> ahah
[13:29] <tom_> :)
[13:30] <Michael_Rockett> :P
[13:30] <hajii> @matt, I'd like access too, since I get a lot of requests along the line of "why don't you fix this" at bbpress.org
[13:30] <Nightgunner5> Two of the top searches for my wp.com site are about 404s
[13:30] <photomatt_sf> could you each let me know your bbpress.org usernames?
[13:30] <Nightgunner5> bbpress pretty permalinks gives me a 404 error and 404 permalink errors bbpress
[13:30] <Nightgunner5> Nightgunner5
[13:30] <jjj> Only put porn in *some* places is what he's saying. :)
[13:30] <nicolagreco> if you need help (as i've done for bp i'm here) and i can't have access to porn giving that i'm not of age yet..
[13:30] <justintadlock> bbPress username - greenshady
[13:30] <photomatt_sf> hajii: this is just editor access, can't change templates or file stuff
[13:30] <tom_> bbP: tomdebruin
[13:30] <hajii> bbpress.org chrishajer if you'll have me
[13:30] <hajii> @photomatt_sf, that's OK
[13:31] <hajii> @photomatt_sf just accuracy stuff
[13:31] <pmall> photomatt_sf: wp.org -> PeteMall
[13:31] <benhuson> username husobj
[13:31] * nicolagreco (n=nicolagr@151.54.95.92) Quit
[13:31] <photomatt_sf> this is a bit of an experiment, we've never opened the site up to outside contribution before on the WP side
[13:32] <Michael_Rockett> Michael888 - but I think I'd rather get into forum moderation at the moment. :)
[13:32] * nicolagreco (n=nicolagr@151.54.95.92) has joined #bbpress
[13:32] <Ryan_> Without post revisions it would have been a bit dodgy back in the day.
[13:32] <hajii> keep good backups :-)
[13:32] <photomatt_sf> that's a good place to transition to: hajii you're a current moderator, could you give a state of the forums and where you need help?
[13:33] <justintadlock> @Ryan - Finally a use for those post revisions. ;)
[13:33] * apeatling (n=apeatlin@83.111.219.33) has joined #bbpress
[13:33] <Ryan_> Hello Andy :)
[13:33] <nicolagreco> hello apeatling
[13:33] <pmall> jjj: 4 more to go
[13:33] <hajii> for moderating the bbPress.org forums, I'm not sure there's any trouble moderating, I am there daily, 3x or 4x /day
[13:34] <hajii> but more moderators are always good
[13:34] <jjj> pmall, almost there :)
[13:34] <apeatling> hello
[13:34] <hajii> it would be nice to be able to fix inaccuracies in existing WP pages
[13:34] <photomatt_sf> pmall: what's your username? missed it earlier
[13:34] <Michael_Rockett> jjj: really determined hey? ;)
[13:34] <hajii> I assume they're WP pages
[13:34] <pmall> PeteMall wp.org
[13:34] <photomatt_sf> hajii: how many other moderators are there?
[13:35] <hajii> @photomatt - I don't know. _ck_ was one active one, but she's gone
[13:35] <Ryan_> bbPress.org could do with a "report post" button in the forums (and so could WP.org). Private messaging and forum signatures wouldn't go amiss either.
[13:35] <hajii> maybe just me actively now?
[13:35] <hajii> trentadams was for a while
[13:35] <jjj> ryan_, buddypress has pm's and could use profile data for signatures too. :)
[13:35] <hajii> @Ryan_ - if you tag the topic with modlook, I will take care of it
[13:36] <hajii> that has sort of developed
[13:36] <Michael_Rockett> I'm around the forums almost 5 to 10 times a day.
[13:36] <Ryan_> Yeah, I know how to do that, but most people don't and I usually forget the tag anyway.
[13:37] <hajii> @Ryan_ right now it's not a problem since the forums are low volume, will be a problem in the future. Not sure how they handle the volume at wp.org
[13:37] <pmall> w/o jumping the gun... what else do we have on the agenda for today?
[13:37] <photomatt_sf> I was very surprised when _ck_ left, I hadn't heard anything from her like an email or anything -- anyone know he story there?
[13:37] <pmall> 20 mins to go... I wanna make sure we cover everything
[13:37] <hajii> @photomatt_sf [opens can of worms]
[13:37] <photomatt_sf> hajii: anyone else who's been active you'd like to nominate to be a moderator?
[13:37] <andrewpowers> she didn't get enough donation?
[13:37] <Ryan_> I think she just plain doesn't agree with the direction of the project.
[13:37] <aufumy> she was soliciting donations from her showcase site, but hadn't received much, and was looking for a leader
[13:37] <andrewpowers> Thats what here site said...
[13:37] <andrewpowers> *her
[13:38] <aufumy> leadership
[13:38] <hajii> @photomatt_sf - I would have to look at the logins to be sure. There are a couple very helpful people there right now
[13:38] <Michael_Rockett> @photomatt_sf: I think she just lost it - probably mixed feelings about the continuity of bbPress.
[13:38] <tom_> she much preferred 0.9 to 1.0 for some reason.
[13:38] <hajii> @tom_ performance
[13:38] <hajii> !bloat
[13:38] <photomatt_sf> true and bbPress has floated rudderless for a few months now
[13:38] <Ryan_> I'm guessing it was a long term decision based on her wanting to take the project in an entirely different direction ... that's just a wild guess on my part though. I don't know her beyond her forum posts.
[13:39] <photomatt_sf> well maybe we'll make it so awesome she jumps back in again :) I miss her
[13:39] <hajii> I miss her plugins.
[13:39] <jjj> haha
[13:39] <jjj> But not her?
[13:39] <Michael_Rockett> It would be great. I'm sure she might consider it when bbPress is alive and kicking again. :)
[13:39] <hajii> I hate telling people "there is this plugin, but it only worked up to 0.9"
[13:39] <Ryan_> The thing is, most of the plugins will automatically become available if the system is switched to WP.
[13:39] <DJPaul> @hajii lol
[13:40] <photomatt_sf> that'd be a good next topic: plugins
[13:40] <Ryan_> Since there are equivalent WP plugins.
[13:40] <hajii> @Ryan_ right
[13:40] <photomatt_sf> Ryan_ has a good point that a lot become not needed if we make the plugin good
[13:40] <hajii> ok, next topic :-)
[13:41] <jjj> Those equivalent plugins need to be updated to be bbPress aware though...
[13:41] <Ryan_> Should any existing plugin functionality be included in the core download?
[13:41] <photomatt_sf> jjj: how so? like a FB connect plugin would just start working
[13:41] <photomatt_sf> we get widgets for free, wouldn't need to redo that in bbPress
[13:41] <Michael_Rockett> About plugins, I think that we should keep most features as plugins as people will want to be able to choose. Exceptions would be avatars,messaging,and subscribing - I guess.
[13:41] <Nightgunner5> photomatt_sf: I don't want bbPress to turn into a CMS
[13:41] <photomatt_sf> google analytics, typekit, and insert JS plugin would work too
[13:42] <hajii> +1 Nightgunner5
[13:42] <jjj> True, but things like tinyMCE for post forms, etc... Unless they all use the existing WP code.
[13:42] <photomatt_sf> Nightgunner5: that's why we're embedding in WP, it is
[13:42] <Ryan_> Private messaging is a BuddyPress plugin already so would become automatically available after the WP merge.
[13:42] <hajii> what bbPress plugin functionality would NOT be present in WordPress?
[13:42] <Nightgunner5> Ryan_: bbPM, anyone?
[13:42] <justintadlock> I'd personally like to see a poll on the bbPress site that gets some user feedback on the type of functionality they'd like to see. We could see what those things are and either incorporate it into bbPress or create new plugins.
[13:42] <tom_> some great moderation functionality should be core.
[13:43] <andrewpowers> support forum functionality
[13:43] <Ryan_> @NightGunner5 - I assume your plugin would break on converting to WP though, and would unfortunately become redundant since there will already be the BuddyPress one.
[13:43] <Michael_Rockett> +1 justinadlock :)
[13:43] <justintadlock> @tom_ Maybe extend the current role/capability system through bbPress.
[13:43] <jjj> What I'm saying is, just because there's a plugin out there to perform a specific task in WP, doesn't mean it will magically work exactly like it is today for bbPress. There's lots of plugins that don't work with BuddyPress, and needed updates or rewrites to focus on that specific functionality of BP.
[13:43] <Nightgunner5> Ryan_: The BuddyPress one requires BuddyPress
[13:43] <photomatt_sf> justintadlock: I can do that
[13:44] <hajii> role mapping always seemed like a pain in the butt
[13:44] <jjj> justintadlock photomatt_sf, buddypress extends the role.cap system for bp-forums already.
[13:44] <hajii> now, will be gone
[13:44] <justintadlock> @andrewpowers - Such as "resolved", "not resolved," and so on? Custom taxonomy, maybe?
[13:44] <jjj> It adds the bbpress roles/caps to the WP ones.
[13:44] <Michael_Rockett> Yeah - A poll would be great, but with functionality for people to bring in ideas?
[13:44] <photomatt_sf> jjj: nice
[13:44] <hajii> http://wordpress.org/extend/ideas/
[13:44] <andrewpowers> Yes, you've faced the same problem :)
[13:44] <photomatt_sf> I'll put a survey like we do on WP.org
[13:45] <hajii> @photomatt_sf, like the ones Jane does?
[13:45] <hajii> Wells
[13:45] <photomatt_sf> hajii: yep
[13:45] <photomatt_sf> what if someday bbPress was a canonical plugin for WP? :)
[13:45] <Michael_Rockett> good idea. There's also UserVoice. Quite handy, I must say.
[13:45] <hajii> I like bbPress becoming a WordPress plugin
[13:45] <nicolagreco> that's cool photomatt_sf
[13:46] <hajii> canonical is an interesting idea
[13:46] <hajii> for wp plugins
[13:46] <justintadlock> @andrewpowers - Support forum functionality could also be handled by custom fields.
[13:46] <nicolagreco> i think that MU should be a plugin too
[13:46] <photomatt_sf> jjj: are there any lessons from the BuddyPress side of things we should think about?
[13:46] <Ryan_> @Nicola - no, it is merging instead.
[13:46] <pmall> photomatt_sf: when we started this... I thought canonical plugins
[13:46] <hajii> isn't it already merged? WPMU && WP
[13:46] <nicolagreco> you mean buil-tin Ryan_ ?
[13:47] <photomatt_sf> hajii: not yet
[13:47] <jjj> photomatt_sf, from my experience users want this to be seamlessly super insane easy, and if it isn't they'll be turned away...
[13:47] <Ryan_> Yes, it's going to be built in for 3.0 probably.
[13:47] <hajii> +1 jjj
[13:47] <hajii> some people are persistent though, and bbPress makes their head explode after about 48 hours of attempting integration
[13:48] <photomatt_sf> hajii: yes, fewer heads exploding is good :)
[13:48] <jjj> photomatt_sf, some of the dev hurdles BP went through before 1.1 with themes and moving files and stuff, it turned a lot of people off at first for being too hard, unlike WP which is easy.
[13:48] <photomatt_sf> it's like the unofficial WP slogan: we suck less with every release
[13:48] <Ryan_> Deep integration would become automatic on WP merger which would make everything super easy.
[13:48] <Michael_Rockett> Haha! I never knew that one - brilliant! :)
[13:48] <hajii> that is a big one; people have come to expect WordPress like functionality/experience from all things Automattic. bbPress fails in that regard
[13:49] <pmall> photomatt_sf: I'm tweeting that!
[13:49] <benhuson> Yep, I like WordPress core + bbPress / BuddyPress / MU - Easy for users and shared functionality
[13:49] <nicolagreco> pmall: i'll retweet sure
[13:49] <Nightgunner5> I think bbPress's main problem was being dropped for half a year
[13:49] <Nightgunner5> And that's why it's not up to WP standards
[13:49] <photomatt_sf> hajii: yes and to clarify just like wordpress.org bbpress is not owned or operated by Automattic, it's separate
[13:50] <hajii> I personally have no need for WPMU or BuddyPress, but having them built in isn't going to turn me off
[13:50] <Michael_Rockett> I'd actually love to know the reasons why bbPress halted for so long.
[13:50] <jjj> photomatt_sf, I know for myself, that having Andy as an active part of the community was awesome also...
[13:50] <photomatt_sf> just because I saw a lot of people conflating them in the forums
[13:50] <hajii> @photomatt_sf, I have no idea what that means
[13:51] <Ryan_> jajjj = he means people confuse bbPress.org as being owned by Automattic which it is not. The question is ... who does own bbPress.org?
[13:51] <hajii> other than morbid curiousity, I have no need to know what happened in the past with bbPress. Looking forward now.
[13:51] <photomatt_sf> Michael_Rockett: it didn't actually halt until a few months ago, it's always had at least one full-time developer from the time I worked on it
[13:51] <Michael_Rockett> I thought Automattic did - or is it just a contribution project from Automattic's side?
[13:51] <jjj> hajii, some people can't get past politics.
[13:52] <hajii> it's not owned by automattic? interesting
[13:52] <hajii> bbpress.org owned by Matt?
[13:52] <hajii> I don't really care
[13:52] <photomatt_sf> I own bbPress.org just like WordPress.org -- separate from Automattic -- and the plan is to run it in the same fashion. We'll register the bbPress trademark under the pending foundation
[13:52] <junsuijin> having a start from buddypress 1.1-pre i think another lesson to learn is that changing the way something works is going to confuse many of the early adopters
[13:52] <hajii> AH - got it
[13:52] <junsuijin> ie the theme change
[13:52] <Michael_Rockett> photomatt_sf: well, it's been going pretty slowly - I'd love to know the reasons behind it. But I think I can guess a few.
[13:52] <hajii> changing from .9 to 1.0 is what chased _ck_ away, partly
[13:52] <junsuijin> for the better, but lots of whiners and futile resistors
[13:53] <Ryan_> Well moving from bbPress 1.0.x to WordPress will be huge. All plugins and themes will break.
[13:53] <photomatt_sf> Michael_Rockett: I think we were pursuing something harder than it needed to be, building backpress instead of just embedding in WP
[13:53] <jjj> junsuijin has a good point. photomatt_sf, are there stats from active bbPress installations to tell us how many are standalone versus integrated? Probably not eh?
[13:53] <photomatt_sf> jjj: there's no update system, so no stats
[13:53] <hajii> will there even *be* bbpress themes any more?
[13:53] <Michael_Rockett> photomatt_sf: I see - that makes a heap load of sense.
[13:53] <hajii> they could be page templates
[13:54] <photomatt_sf> hajii: good point
[13:54] <photomatt_sf> to jjj's idea of making things as simple as possible
[13:54] <Nightgunner5> I've got download stats from the past few days: http://nightgunner5.is-a-geek.net:1337/bbpress/downloads/
[13:54] <Ryan_> Yeah, there would be no need for bbPress themes, just forum specific template files or conditionals in themes.
[13:54] <photomatt_sf> a lot of things that are currently templates, namely registration, could be a lightbox-style popup
[13:54] <photomatt_sf> for ultra-simple theme integration, error handling, etc
[13:54] <junsuijin> it'd actually be a good idea to consult with apeatling on what works well for making such an encompassing plugin out of bbpress i think
[13:54] <justintadlock> I'd rather see some stuff broken now with few bbPress users rather than later when there are more.
[13:54] <hajii> that would make life so much easier for bbPress theming
[13:54] <Ryan_> Ack, NO POPUPS please!
[13:54] <jjj> hajii, they could also work like BuddyPress pages do, and be "virtual" pages.
[13:54] <Ryan_> People don't use those for good reason.
[13:54] <photomatt_sf> Ryan_: it's gonna happen :)
[13:55] <Ryan_> :(
[13:55] <hajii> gack!
[13:55] <photomatt_sf> lightbox is everywhere, it's a really nice interaction -- like adding a friend or sending a message from a profile page on facebook, it's a little box
[13:55] <Ryan_> There must be a way to avoid popups or lightboxes.
[13:55] <hajii> 5 minutes
[13:55] <photomatt_sf> faster than a new pageload
[13:55] <tom_> i love lightboxes
[13:55] <photomatt_sf> and doesn't need a brand new template
[13:55] <photomatt_sf> also a lot of those things don't entirely warrant their own page
[13:55] <benhuson> Lightbox popups OK - Window popups bad :(
[13:55] <justintadlock> A Lightbox-style popup sounds more like a plugin thing to me. But, I'm personally becoming a fan of Colorbox.
[13:55] <Nightgunner5> photomatt_sf: It would need to load a new page in the popup
[13:55] <jjj> junsuijin is right again. Frankly apeatling has already made bbPress a plugin, it's just part of BuddyPress that includes all of the extra social things that forums have; profiles, pms, friends, etc...
[13:55] <photomatt_sf> there's no SEO reasons to have registration forms be its own standalone thing
[13:55] <Ryan_> It doesn't matter if people like them, but it massively reduces the extensibility of the platform if you can't theme as you like.
[13:55] <aufumy> +1 lightbox
[13:56] <Ryan_> Otherwise you run into the same problems SimplePress has.
[13:56] * GIGALinux2 (n=GIGALinu@82.113.121.222) has joined #bbpress
[13:56] <Michael_Rockett> +2 lightbox - it's quick. it's simple. it's elegant. :) :)
[13:56] <photomatt_sf> Ryan_: it's just an iframe, everything to make that page could be embedded
[13:56] <hajii> it's cliche
[13:56] <jjj> One could essentially install BuddyPress and only turn the BP-Forums component on, and now you have bbPress's code embedded into WordPress.
[13:56] <Nightgunner5> Michael_Rockett: "Simple, fast, elegant"
[13:56] * GIGALinux (n=GIGALinu@82.113.106.218) Quit (Nick collision from services.)
[13:56] * GIGALinux2 is now known as GIGALinux
[13:56] <Ryan_> Oh dear, this is sounding truly horrid :(
[13:56] <hajii> but it's quick and uniquitus
[13:56] <apeatling> If the integration code is extracted from BuddyPress and moved into bbPress then we could get it integrating with one click tomorrow.
[13:56] <apeatling> it's not a lot of code
[13:57] <Ryan_> I hope you aren't suggesting using an iframe for an entire embedded forum right?
[13:57] <junsuijin> +! apeatling :D
[13:57] <apeatling> and it works
[13:57] <apeatling> :)
[13:57] <photomatt_sf> let's revisit the lightbox topic later, sounds like we need to talk about it more
[13:57] <photomatt_sf> we're running out of time on the official meetup, let's summarize the todos everyone is taking away
[13:57] <Michael_Rockett> nightgunner5: That too ;)
[13:57] <Ryan_> I can guarantee you any serious HTML/CSS people will throw a hissy fit over that.
[13:57] <photomatt_sf> I'm going to add a few folks access for bbPress.org WP install
[13:57] <photomatt_sf> and put up a survey on the blog
[13:57] <photomatt_sf> for 1.1 features
[13:58] <hajii> @photomatt_sf, I will send you a list of people who have been helpful at bbpress.org and should be considered as moderators
[13:58] <photomatt_sf> hajii: perfect, thank you
[13:58] * @ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) Quit (shutting down)
[13:59] <pmall> http://j.mp/5JydpG
[13:59] <photomatt_sf> wow we lost chanserv?
[13:59] * ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) has joined #bbpress
[13:59] * irc.freenode.net sets mode: +o ChanServ
[13:59] <Nightgunner5> ChanServ: +1 timing
[13:59] <jjj> haha
[13:59] <Michael_Rockett> pmall: nice :)
[14:00] <hajii> +1 @pmall
[14:00] <hajii> adios?
[14:00] <photomatt_sf> alrighty lets wrap up then :)
[14:00] <tom_> thanks everyone. IRC moves fast! Really looking forward to the outcomes of this.
[14:00] <photomatt_sf> thank you everyone for coming out
[14:00] <Ryan_> Thanks for organising it :)
[14:01] <Michael_Rockett> pleasure :)
[14:01] <justintadlock> Great discussion, everyone. I enjoyed my first IRC chat.
[14:01] <andrewpowers> thanks ... looking forward to working with you kids :D
[14:01] <Nightgunner5> It was nice to have more than 3 people talking within an hour in #bbpress
[14:01] <Michael_Rockett> Ryan_: Agreed - thanks matt. Finally, some action can happen. :)
[14:01] <nicolagreco> 'kid' is for me ? :P
[14:01] <andrewpowers> @justintadlock - haha me too
[14:01] <benhuson> yes, thank Matt - looking forward to bbPress development
[14:01] <jjj> <gavel>
[14:02] <hajii> second that motion
[14:02] <Ryan_> This puts me an interesting situation now, as I'm in charge of the SitePoint bbPress theme project.
[14:02] <justintadlock> Are we going to have a regular IRC meetup for bbPress?
[14:02] <photomatt_sf> I'll post the logs to the bbPress blog
[14:02] <Ryan_> But I'm not seeing much point in plowing ahead with it now if the bbPress system is giong to change so massively.
[14:02] <photomatt_sf> </meetup>