[Jimi Wikman]

@robkk no one want a bloated software.

It’s important to separate function from form in these discussions. A function like forum grouping with drag and drop has no impact on loading time in the front end yet it is a very powerful function that make it possible to expand BBP to a forum without having to sacrifice the Bulletin board feeling. If you want things just the way things are you just place all forums in one category.

Same thing with moderation or usergroups. It does not impact anything in the frontend, yet it will make a world of difference for managing the forum. If you don’t want to use it you just ignore it. No bloating, but a world of difference.

Then when we come to form we should put things like group icons and topic ratings as plugins. these are hardly used by all and as such they should be optional for those that want/need them.

I however see an issue with plugins the way both WordPress and BBPress plugins are setup a lot now and that is that each plugin have their own set of CSS and JS. If I add 20+ plugins that usually mean that I will have 20+ CSS and JS files clogging up the browser stack. the total sum of the files are usually very small, but the sheer number will slow the site down considerably.

If you have worked with WordPress installations with a lot of plugins you know that it’s a serious pain in the butt to try to get minification and combining JS/CSS to work properly. It’s either that the order of things are wrong or the minification mess something up in one or more files and you get stuck spending hours trying to find what is causing the mess. And even chained and minified the number of items in the browser stack still cause delays in the DOM rendering.

This is why I think as much as possible should be added into as few plugins as possible and that is why I think that Buddypress and BBPress should merge and some basic functionality should be included in the core. I know that this is not what the bulletin board users may want to hear, but if BBPress are to reach a wider audience and become a forum plugin that will appeal the great userbase of WordPress, then I say this is something that need to be done.

With around 70 million installations of WordPress we can assume that 1% at least have need of a good forum. Thats 700.000 BBPress installations that should be out there right now and I am not sure if that is the case or not? In my opinion BBPress should have at least 2.5 million installations by now as I know that the demand for forums are very high and people are searching high and low for any forum that will merge with WordPress.

I know that alot of people here want a watered down and minimalistic bulletin board and I would say you are in majority since that is what BBPress is today. However I have a feeling that sooner or later someone will realize that the majority of users out there don’t want that and they will fork BBPress and go towards a more forum oriented software. When that happens I fear that that fork will boom in a major way and that will eventually reduce BBPress as developers will go where the userbase is and there is just so much you can optimize (of course you can ALWAYS optimize and refactor things, but it might now be very fun or productive for the users) in a minimalistic bulletin board.

I think that BBPress is at a good place right now and before the end of the year with forum grouping in place and perhaps a little better organization of this website we should see more users starting to enjoy BBPress and not just bulletin board lovers 😉

[Jimi Wikman]

I understand that, but that just show that there are a lot of people out there that expect more from BBPress and as things progress and the options are available (and easy to find), there will be less and less whining 🙂

For me it was very strange to install something referred to as forum only to get a bulletin board and then it got annoying not finding the quick answers on how to make the bulletin board look and behave as a forum. Once BBPress get more like a forum and there are options to expand it, then you’ll see more feature requests instead of confusion and nagging 🙂

Just hang in there!

[Jimi Wikman]

@pfswss are looking for something like http://ekatana.se/forums/ ?
If so I plan on making a blogpost on the steps needed to make that happen. Perhaps that will help you get closer to the layout that you want from BBPress?

Also, I have Buddypress on there as well and while I am not very happy about the additional css and JS that it add I think it’s worth it if you want a community and not just a bulletin board.

[Jimi Wikman]

That’s a pretty selfish way to look at the situation Robin. Just because you and many others like you want a scaled down system does not mean that BBPress should head in that direction. I am confident that the majority out there want something more than what BBPress currently represent and as far as I can see the development IS going toward a more forum-like entity rather than BBPress currently is.

I still think that you and everyone else like you should still be able to have a simple bulletin board kind of experience, but the idea that that’s all the BBPress will offer is not a path I see will go anywhere in the long run.

I understand the concept of keeping the core simple and then have modules to expand it, in fact I think that’s the correct way to move forward as that is the only way we can make everyone happy. It should be easy to find the modules needed to expand the forum from a list of topics looking like it just came from 1999 to anything from a high tech forum catering tens of thousands with all the bells and whistles to anything in between.

[Jimi Wikman]

I did not stop using IPB, I still have it on some sites. The problem with IPB is the opposite of BBPress actually and that is that is just a forum (sure they have blog and IP.Content, but they are still pretty bad).

I also do not want to work with half measures so I have to bridge two systems, I want it to be one system all tied together.

[Jimi Wikman]

@robin-w I will happily assist with graphic design, UX and frontend code when time permits. Not sure what you need though, but I could start with making some design suggestion for BBPress itself and something about the documentation to make it more accessible?

I also have some suggestions for the website itself if that would be of interest, but I need to understand more about the BG’s you have first and also familiarize myself better with both the websites structure and the WordPress “way” before I want to attempt that. No need to make a flashy design if it does not improve anything or goes against the standard process. Worse yet if it does not focus on your business goals and make a mess of things 🙂

@netweb I look forward to your arrival on Github. I think it’s a nice move 🙂

I am all for communication between developers, in fact I would say its a requirement for managing a development project like this with developers all over the world. I would not use IRC though, I would use something like HipChat (especially integrated in Jira and confluence so I get SVN information, ticket escalation and new documentation notices among other things). HipChat is free and it’s extendable with WordPress, Twitter, Github and more.

[Jimi Wikman]

Of what I have seen BBPress is a tight ship when it comes to code quality and extensibility, so I have no doubt that the code is outstanding in every way. That is also one of the reasons I think it’s a shame not more people are using BBPress.

I understand the reasons behind using Trac and trust me I have been in the same situation many times 🙂 I do think it’s important not to accept a standard because its a standard, especially not one that could be improved upon. I know that it’s difficult to push for a change in WordPress, but if the tools don’t improve the workflow and encourage participation, then it should be replaced in my opinion.

Still, it’s not my call but I know some very skilled people that are discouraged from helping out with WordPress because of the lacking tools and the feeling of being back on early 2000 when they see meetings taking place on IRC 🙂

[Jimi Wikman]

@netweb I appreciate the long list of answers and I like what you post 🙂

For the warning system you can see it in action on IPB and it’s basically a system that allow for moderators to issue a warning for bad behavior. This can be accompanied by a temporary ban, forced into moderation or an outright permanent ban.

User warning system allows custom sanctions

When troublesome users make themselves a nuicance, IP.Board provides a range of tools to help staff deal with the situation. The user warning system enables sanctions to be issued, ranging from a simple message sent to the user, right up to an outright permanent ban. Other options include a temporary suspension, or putting the user in the moderation queue, requiring all of their topics & posts to be approved by staff before they’re shown.

—

Is it really so difficult to make it so BBPress create pages for all areas of the forum? Rather than using a template each area have its own page and can take advantage of all the features of a page? That way it would never be a problem to setup pages to be full width, what sidebars to add on the forum index or inside a forum, or even a thread?

I am not familiar with the code, but if such a thing could be done, then that problem would no longer exist?

—
Custom fields should not be something you ask the users to go inet functions.php to fix, that is way to complicated for the majority of the users 🙂

—

Post and topic indicators, have you talked to other forum developers like IPB and VBulletin about how they have solved this? I mean IPB have forums with tens of million topics and tens of thousands of users that are all working well even with this turned on?

[Jimi Wikman]

It’s the same issue with all forum software, and blogging software for that matter.

In my experience most people do not want a minimalistic forum and that is why you will find thousands upon thousands of people asking which forum can integrate with WordPress. Check any forum and you will find hundreds of people looking for ways to integrate that forum software into their wordpress.

The ones that use BBPress are the ones that are content with what comes out of the box and I would say we are a very large minority!

With the decline in forum usage in the last 5-10 years I would say that functionality is what makes forums stay alive. If you look at IPB and VBulletin they are still the most used forum software despite the fact that they cost money.

The reason for that is the features that can satisfy every need a user could possibly have. Its constantly being developed and has many large modifications from a core group of dedicated developers.

I think that with some modifications to the core so that the basic functionality can easily be added, perhaps by adding a plugin storage with key plugins that can be added or removed as the user need it. I don’t think regular users will spend time looking for a BBPress plugin to give new post indicators and go through the hassle of installing Buddypress for more functionality. Instead I believe in the setup that Buddypress have with core modules you can turn on or off as you need them.

I DO believe that BBPress have a great potential to be one of the largest and most used forum software in the world. It has a great integration with WordPress. It has lots of features and a strong community of plugin developers. And it’s very fast.

I just think it need a lower learning curve and a more approachable attitude 🙂

[Jimi Wikman]

@robin-w I know the feeling. It’s been that way for me as well and mostly it just get frustrated when I try to find answers or try to figure things out, like why do the forums and the forum index not behave the same and what do I need to do. So I just toss BBPress in the trash and get frustrated.

Documentation is always a problem and it’s not easy keeping it alive, or find the time to update it during development cycles. I know as it’s the same in any project and that is why most companies include it in the tasks as part of its progress.

I know that BBPress work with Trac, which is a system I personally find horribly lacking compared to systems such as Jira and Confluence. The fact that I have to spend time to actually find the link to it or any information on how to get involved in BBPress is a sign of the problem I Think BBPress is suffering from: It’s just not approachable or easily understod because it’s lacking UX and structure from a user perspective.

Just the fact that this site does not have breadcrumbs so I can navigate or see where in the page structure I am make my blood boil to be honest…especially in the forums.

Fortunately there are progress happening and I think everyone is doing their best, so I am sure we can improve together 🙂

[Jimi Wikman]

Some of the things that are missing in the core:

.WYSIWYG for input field. I know there is a plugin for it, but it should be in core and you should have the option to turn on and off in admin.

.Organisation for forums. Forum grouping has been a standard since 1999.

.Topic and forum indicators for new topics. Finding new topics should be at a glance.

.Moderation should be available for all forums individually and on a board basis.

.Permission masks per usergroup to control who can read, reply and post in different forums.

.Content approval for new posts and to take individual posts offline for review.

.Warning system for handling member mayhem.

.Report center where moderators and admins can handle reported threads/posts/members.

.Private messages should not require Buddypress. It should be in BBPress.

.Custom Profile Fields should not requires Buddypress…

.Notifications should not require Buddypress…

.Buttons to take actions at the top of the thread and post is also standard since 2003.

.Out of the box functionality so there is no need to create additional pages like bbpress.php to actually make things look the way you are.

…and so on 🙂

[Jimi Wikman]

It’s because you still have the sidebar column in the code.
You can try to chase it down or just hide it with CSS. @aussiestar14 you can fix your forum by doing this:

add a class to .content-wrap and set the width to 100% (I think if you do it directly on .content-wrap it will mess upp other pages?). Then create a class named .bbpress #sidebar-subsidiary and set display:none in it.

That way you hide the sidebar column and make the content stretch 100%

Hope that helps.

[Jimi Wikman]

I would say add Buddypress.

It add quite a lot to the profile (custom fields is included) and you can pick and choose from the different components like private messages, friends system, notifications, groups and so on.

It should fit on top of Buddypress seamlessly.

[Jimi Wikman]

Personally I find it lacking in UX and I find it hard to navigate to find the topics I need. I also find that the information is often lacking, which is discouraging 🙁

I sense that there are more developers than UX people around here, am I right? 😉