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What. The. Heck. Is. Going. On!

  • Who in god’s name is running things now? Why in god’s name can’t anyone fix the issues with bbpress.org? Why in god’s name can’t Matt ever grow up and let _ck_ or someone with a heart, soul, and brain, run the bbpress project?

    Stop sucking up everybody and demand some answers! This could be the best forum software on the internet if it wasn’t chained down by laziness and politics a.k.a. selfishness and stubbornness!

Viewing 25 replies - 1 through 25 (of 56 total)

  • Gautam Gupta
    Moderator

    @gautamgupta

    The truth is that Matt DID come here to help the project and take on the development but it was the community (including me) who troubled Matt a lot that he left the project. Check – http://bbpress.org/forums/topic/whats-happening-with-bbpress/page/5#post-64425

    Also, mdawaffe has come back and most probably bbPress development would start after WordPress 3.0′s release. And, I and several others have also been contributing to trac and chrishajer has been committing the patches to SVN.

    And please do not make fake profiles, you should have guts to come here and ask this with your own original profile.


    kevinjohngallagher
    Member

    @kevinjohngallagher

    I am not happy about a lot of things with bbPress, specifically it’s management and communication; which have been shockingly bad for 2 years now. I also think tht Matt really dropped the ball on bbPress and then somewhat screwed us over with his comments against the “bbpress community” in his WordCap Keynote speech.

    That said:

    1) Don’t hide behind a fake profile. We all have opinions, and we all agree and disagree on many things. If you’ve got something to say, and you believe this is the place to say it, have the common decency to put your name to it.

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    2) One has to differentiate between Matt the person, and Matt the Founder/CEO/Employee of Automattic. I have no doubt that Matt 100% wanted bbPress to succeed and he did help reinvigourate the project for a little while, he just dropped the ball again; but breaking his own rules:

    http://ma.tt/2009/08/kill-your-community/

    As I said herein the link below, Matt should have delegated bbPress to someone and kept up communication as Matt is an insanely busy dude. There is no doubt that WordPress 3.0 would take priority over bbPress, and there’s all the other pies that Matt has his finger in.

    http://bbpress.org/forums/topic/from-a-project-management-viewpoint

    It’s not for you or me or anyone really to make demands of his or anyone else’s time. We can ask for information, especially really basic information that should be on this website – but Matt the person and Matt the head of Automattic doesn’t owe you/me/anybody anything.

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    3) I think Matt got it wrong and messed up. He did so a couple of times in a row imo. I think he then did really wrong by us publicly taking a go at the folks who keep this site going – I thought that was underhanded and a total slap in the face to all the moderators (sorry the ONLY moderator) and people who didn’t jump ship. I lost alot of respect for Matt the person when that happened.

    I think he continues to allow this to spiral but not communicating with anyone in a moderator or higher position so that some of these same questions can be answered; but bbPress is not his focus, and really, thats his call to make not ours.

    It’s not like it wasn’t like this for bbpress1.0′s release and bbPress0.9 release, and as Matt said, the’ve fecked this up before and nothing changes:

    We’ve done this before. Relax. :)

    – Matt

    http://bbpress.org/forums/topic/from-a-project-management-viewpoint#post-63315

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    4) I truly think this post covers my thoughts in a nice concise manner. And before making any posts like this, I strongly suggest reading it:

    http://bbpress.org/forums/topic/whats-happening-with-bbpress/page/5#post-64410

    It followed a post by Gautam, who’s done stellar work since Matt’s departure, and was followed by the only moderator left asking a simple question and then Matt leaving the project. I think it shows the difference from where “we” the community are and where Matt is. And that’s ok, we’re all allowed to be in different places.

    But posts like this is never going to be helpful.

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    5) I think it’s very very wrong to state that Matt doesn’t have “heart, soul and brain”. The man is a really nice, wonderfully warm and smart human being. He’s just fracked up on this, and for teh first time in a long time, hasn’t looked at things objectively and help up his hands (which is one of the things I admire most about Matt over the years).

    And bro, with all due respect to _ck_, without warning she left the project too and closed down her forum so we couldn’t access the code or discussions on it. I think _ck_ is an amazing amazing developer, and knows bbPress inside out; but I’m not sure on what you’re basing this presumption that she (or any of us) would be better at leading a community based project. _ck_ has in the past shown some signs of not being the happiest bunny when people start asking questions.

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    6) I’m still laughing at how childish your fake profile name is. “wtfmatt”. Ha, you really should have just called yourself “impatient13yearold”.

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    7) I was trying to reference this earlier. I wrote this alomst 18 months ago now. Crazy how much of it still holds true:

    http://bbpress.org/forums/topic/how-to-help-us-help-bbpress

    Take care,

    Kev


    _ck_
    Participant

    @_ck_

    As rude and weird as this entire topic is, the reality is the form of bbPress that you have known up to now and through 1.1 (1.2?) from Automattic is over.

    Once bbPress stops being stand-alone, everything will change: all the advice on this entire forum will be mostly useless, the plugins and themes will be pointless for the WordPress plugin version of bbPress.

    In fact they should probably call the plugin something other than bbPress as it will only confuse people when they search for help and resources for the plugin.

    The turning point for bbPress was BackPress. The state we are in now is 100% the problem with that decision (made by Matt in January 2008, quite cavalierly IMHO).

    To be more specific, bbPress based on BackPress actually would have been almost acceptable, IF, and this is critical, IF WordPress had been also converted to use BackPress. But it wasn’t and now almost obviously never will be.

    So we are left with an orphaned product, not bbPress, but BackPress itself, which makes the 1.x line of bbPress a dead-end because of it’s dependency.

    I need to be very careful what I say next because some people immediately jump on every word as some kind of promise, which I am not making. All I can say is that I will attempt to maintain 0.9 in my own way as long as reasonably possible (years?) until a better solution emerges (which is unlikely, but we’ll see).

    Considering how it’s all up to Matt now, I’d be *more* polite to him, not less.


    Gautam Gupta
    Moderator

    @gautamgupta

    Why the heck does everyone continue to think this is up to matt and keep sucking up to him? That’s the whole point people, we all built the code and all the plugins, what in god’s name does matt have to do with this anymore besides what… owning the domain name?

    Yes matt is a nice smart guy, but he doesn’t have a HEART for bbpress. He has the brain, but not the heart, is my point. And right now he’s not even using his brain for bbpress so what’s the point of your compliments to him, a rattled nervous praise to *hope* he doesn’t delete bbpress.org???

    Nobody is asking for his time, or efforts! We are just asking that he LET GO of the reigns that he obviously has no interest in holding himself. And by the way, you shouldn’t accuse me of insulting matt, when he is the one that INSULTS US regularly… we are on the same team yo! We can build and take care of this project without him if he would just let people that have a heart for the bbpress project access the server and define goals and deadlines for the project.

    Letting bbpress go the route of a WP plugin is just matt’s round about way of saying “f*ck off” I’m gonna kill this community and sweep it under the rug into the “not so regularly updated” plugin world.

    And as _ck_ said, if it becomes a plugin, then what the heck happens to the bbpress plugins? You can’t install plugins of plugins!

    I don’t know _ck_ well but I know she practically built half the code on this site by herself. That shows HEART. And I know there are others too with just as much heart, like Gautam, etc. I’m not here to play politics, please don’t try and interpret my words! Kevin man you are exactly what I’m talking about, you are smart and have HEART, but you won’t stop playing this nerdy suckup game as if one day matt is going to take you out to dinner. HE WONT. So please stop sucking up and let’s get this stuff done brother!

    If you ask me, I think we should bug matt until he gives in. Emails, blog comments, whatever. He will get the point.

    Or do you have another 2 years to waste?… cuz I don’t. Notice how this site’s Alexa rate is a steady 12k… the entire world is waiting on this mates! Don’t THROW IT AWAY!

    p.s. I’m not hiding behind a fake identity. I’m not a “well known” member of bbpress so don’t fret y’all…


    kevinjohngallagher
    Member

    @kevinjohngallagher

    With respect, If you think I’ve sucked up to anyone – especially Matt or Automattic people – you’ve really not read alot of my posts. I’ve been very forward, blunt and vocal about Matt dropping the ball on this, not only on this site but on others.

    That doesn’t mean I’m going to agree with you, or anyone else, when you insulting someone’s person. Thats not sucking up, thats just being decent. Everyone’s entitled to their opinion.

    Matt has messed up. But he’s human, and this is a collaborative effort. You can’t put the blame for everything that goes wrong on one person. Or you can, but in the end you’re only going to alienate yourself from people who have the same goal.

    That’s the whole point people, we all built the code and all the plugins

    Did “WE”?

    You know Matt wrote bbPress right?

    You know Matt’s emplyees then fixes bbpress (albeit in an adhoc manner) until bbpress 0.8.3, right?

    You know Matt then paid for a ‘full time’ developer for bbPress (Sam Bauers) for a year, right?

    Matt is directly/indirectly responsible for more code than anyone else on this project.

    Yes, he’s causing more issues than he’s solving right now, and yeah it’s annoying; but insulting his person by saying he doesn’t have Brains or Heart is just childish. And bluntly, unhelpful.

    Notice how this site’s Alexa rate is a steady 12k… the entire world is waiting on this mates!

    Lets be honest, the entire world isn’t waiting for this. I’ve spent a large chunk of time in Africa volunteering, building schools and basic irrigation. “The World” doesn’t care. We care, but its’ just forum software. Lets look at this in perspective.

    Look, if you want Matt/AutoMattic/Developers/bbPress-community/Santa to come together or move forward in a particular direction thats cool. But making grandeous statements like this with no hard facts or suggestions doesn’t help at all. Half of what you said in your second post is so wrong it’s unreal. Honestly, if you want change and you want to help, cool. But don’t just spout facts and conclusions that you’ve made up.

    we are on the same team yo!

    I… I’m not sure what to say to that.

    Can I change teams? Or can we vote people off?

    ;-)

    Case in point Kevin. You probably own a $3000 macbook and joined peace corps, and can’t help condescend to everyone while playing the “i’m just reasonable hero” card. You flat out insult _ck_ while attacking me at the same time. Stop wasting time with your egotistical games. Either be a part of bbpress and defend our community, or get out. But trying to play all sides doesn’t work.

    Matt didn’t write bbpress – not as it exists today anyway.

    My point, before Kevin started talking about how he saved Africa, is that we are the ones who have been building this software for 3 years, and we need to demand more from matt (i.e. control). He’s not a freakin’ volunteer for christ’s sake, he owns a company and is a millionaire.

    WE are bbpress, and WE are all on the same team (except when people start condescending to each other). And we need to NOT suck up to matt. We need to demand bbpress retains the community it deserves… and not let lazy matt keep wasting everyone’s time and efforts!

    Nobody cares if he is busy. This community exists and deserves fair treatment and deserves to develop itself if its long-lost leader is screwing the pooch for 3 friggin’ years.


    kevinjohngallagher
    Member

    @kevinjohngallagher

    I dont own, and never have owned a mac; nor joined peace corp; nor saved Africa. But thanks, you have made me laugh alot tonight :D

    It’s usually me who write these stupid things on this forum, it’s nice to not be the daft one for a change, and man, it’s a huge change haha!

    we are on the same team yo!

    I’m hereby submitting a formal transfer request. I’ll join any team apart from Rangers ;-)

    There’s some real passion here, which is great! There’s nothing stopping any of us from forking the code… that’s how WordPress was started after all. A fork of b2.

    I want to go back to an important point that was raised earlier.

    Matt isn’t taking us all out to dinner?!??


    kevinjohngallagher
    Member

    @kevinjohngallagher

    Matt isn’t taking us all out to dinner?!??

    That’s some shameful shit right there yo!

    FORKPRESS 1.1 … July 2010?

    Let’s hear from some of the biggest plugin developers people.

    Let’s hear anything for christ’s sake. Spill your thoughts, PLEASE.

    If we want things to change, action is needed. Inaction will simply keep things how they are, with crippling wishful thinking.

    There is no need to feel abandoned by WP… if we retain our own community with our own goals and our own work.

    Look how fast myBB is growing right now, the world is desperate for alternatives to hacking SMF and phpBB to work with a CMS like WP.

    The fact alone that bbpress supports SEO friendly URLs is keeping this software alive, I swear to god.


    kevinjohngallagher
    Member

    @kevinjohngallagher

    Spill your thoughts, PLEASE.

    I think it’s shameful Matt’s not taking us all out to dinner yo!


    jurasiks
    Participant

    @jurasiks

    i said about forking bbpress some months ago,

    but we don’t need to make second fluxBB (or something like that)

    and if fork = new engine (not using bbpress source)

    yes, SEO urls, cute front-page (not like on another board engines)

    but, somebody will say again: “just wait bbpress 1.1 and then fork”)


    Greg
    Participant

    @rebootnow

    This talk of forking is premature. Where is the developer hiding that will drive this?

    In fact, it would be good to get a sense for the real programmers that are hanging out here.

    Who currently has commit privileges for bbPress? Matt said there were a couple of people that he had granted these to.


    chrishajer
    Participant

    @chrishajer

    I can commit code. You can look through the recent commits and see the others:

    mdawaffe

    filosofo

    matt

    sambauers


    kevinjohngallagher
    Member

    @kevinjohngallagher

    This talk of forking is premature. Where is the developer hiding that will drive this?

    Agreed, but I think having a developer to drive this will just lead us back round to where we are. Developers rarely (and I know i’m generalising) excel at communication, criticism, managing expectations and keeping project plans and feature lists in tact.

    In honesty, looking at the commits on trac, we’ve had some great developers throw their hat in the ring, what we’ve not had, is someone to lead the project and manage it.

    But really, given this thread’s original topic, its not a great basis for this conversation.

    Who currently has commit privileges for bbPress? Matt said there were a couple of people that he had granted these to.

    Yes he did, he also said that he’d given out the privilege to edit bbPress.org to numerous people. Can’t say I’ve seen any edits or blog posts.

    It would be great to get an offical list of folks who can make commits (i’ll include my guesstimates below), if only to see how active that list is with non-Automattic folks other than Gautam.

    ChrisHajer then Matt/Michael/Sam (from Automattic).

    Probably Trent (from Automattic) too.

    I’d be surprised if _ck_, Gautam, and NightGunner wasn’t able to either.


    Greg
    Participant

    @rebootnow

    I’m not particularly fond of your generalization about developer communication skills. That’s not my experience at all. It is just an ignorant stereotype.

    That said, devs are necessary but not sufficient. I agree a lead is essential. My point is that talking about forking the code without committed devs is ridiculous.

    Instead of complaining (justified though it may be) we need to identify the developers who are interested and capable of driving bbPress forward.


    kevinjohngallagher
    Member

    @kevinjohngallagher

    For me, it comes down to this:

    In my opinion there’s no point in getting developers for a project, and then adding someone to Manage it above them because there’s a fairly good chance that the project plan will not be what the developer had in mind.

    The best plan, and again I’m biased, would be to get a group of like minded folks with a vision and have someone lead it, and lay out a plan, and then find a developer(s) who would want to join that project.

    That way you’re getting a developer(s), who knows in advance what they’re getting themselves in for :)

    Being able to share the same message from top (PM) to bottom (community) enables growth and ease of people joining. It encourages all thats good about Open Source Software.

    I learnt that from Automattic :)

    They’ve dropped the ball here, thats all. If they don’t pick it up, someone will. But posts ripping into Matt as a person don’t help anyone :)

    =============================================================

    Look, i’m not wanting to jump the gun here.

    I think this is a really bad time to have this discussion. 1.0.3 is nearing release, and with it will bring bugs and questions and uproar that is both good “bbPress is saved” and bad “bbPress is doomed” and any good/useful conversation is going to be undermined.

    Lets get 1.0.3 out the door, lets avoid posts like one from the orignal author, and lets see where the chips lie after the bulls in the china shop have left and the dust has settled (bulls being WP3 and bbPress1.0.3)

    Thats just my opinion though, I’m sure there are many here who have both other opinions and much better opinions. Especially those not replying to froum posts at now 4.30am ;-]

    Good night all, sleep well!


    Gautam Gupta
    Moderator

    @gautamgupta

    Just go to Trac and see how active developers are (or were, if you are saying that sambauers wasn’t communicating), discussing issues, fixing bugs etc.

    You know, I even received a mail from Matt on May 19 asking if I tested the commit done by mdawaffe (following my reply on this ticket – http://trac.bbpress.org/ticket/1150#comment:15 ).

    There’s no point in blaming matt, or anyone or talking about a lead developer/manager. Just contribute to trac, there are a few tickets pending for 1.0.3 milestone, contribute patches, I would test them, chris would commit them and when everything’s fixed, I’ll fire a mail to matt/mdawaffe to get it released.

    And if you want me to jump on anyone of the sides (to support Automattic people or to contribute to bbPress), then I wont.

    Please close this topic now!


    Gautam Gupta
    Moderator

    @gautamgupta

    Also check http://trac.bbpress.org/ticket/1174#comment:3

    This means that 0.9 branch would no longer be supported.

    1.0.3′s due date was also set.


    Rich Pedley
    Member

    @rich-pedley

    wtfmatt amongst his mass of text also said:

    And as _ck_ said, if it becomes a plugin, then what the heck happens to the bbpress plugins? You can’t install plugins of plugins!

    really? guess my bbpress akismet extras plugin wasn’t possible then. Or many of my unreleased extras plugins that I write don’t exist either. They won’t work out of the box, but you must have little faith in the project if you think that hooks won’t be included to extend it.

    This thread is not doing anything for the community other than to make me think Matt was correct with his belief’s about the community here.


    mr_pelle
    Participant

    @mr_pelle

    Just contribute to trac, there are a few tickets pending for 1.0.3 milestone, contribute patches

    I wish my bbPress knowledge was better, so that I could commit (good) patches… imho most bbPress community isn’t able to contribute actively with patches, and I’m not talking about newbies. Most of 1.1′s and 1.5′s open tickets are not bugs, but enhancements, requiring deep knowledge of bbPress and of its coding standards (see also this ticket).

    As for 1.0.3′s pending tickets, one is not going anywhere till BackPress moves on and the other one is more or less frozen at tellyworth’s 3-weeks-old reply “I’ve tested this briefly and it seems to work”.

    EDIT:

    Also check http://trac.bbpress.org/ticket/1174#comment:3

    This means that 0.9 branch would no longer be supported.

    Well, that’s what the Download page said the first time I got here (March ’10): “The previous 0.9 branch of bbPress will be maintained with security related fixes until late 2010″. _ck_, are you really going to catch 0.9 before it falls into oblivion?


    kevinjohngallagher
    Member

    @kevinjohngallagher

    … I’ll fire a mail to matt/mdawaffe to get it released.

    Gautam,

    It’s ace that you know this mate, it really is.

    But you’re the only one who knows this. Even ChrisHajer said the other did he didn’t know how this was going to work.

    Also check http://trac.bbpress.org/ticket/1174#comment:3

    This means that 0.9 branch would no longer be supported.

    I think this is a great example of where bbPress is currently failing.

    bbpress0.9 support being removed 6 months earlier than planned/reported/promised/stated on this website is actually news that should be posted somewhere. Like a blog post, or even it’s own topic. Instead Matt deleted the 0.9.0.7 branch 6 weeks ago, and the first non-developer members of the community read about it is 20 posts into a topic.

    I try and keep an eye on Trac and test nightlies (ok for me it’s weeklies, sorry), but even for me this change by Matt slipped by me. How vigilant do we truly expect average bbPress user to be?

    How hard is it to write a blog post, or a topic?

    I’m no a fan of this Matt bashing, or anyone bashing, but surely someone/anyone could have posted about this so the community on the whole knew about it? To me, thats a lack of respect.

    @reboot now,

    Talk of forking is never premature when the community has gone 2 years with chaos and barely any progress. You say we must wait for devs to lead the way. No we don’t. We *would* need to fork, and then worry about how to re-organize from there (if supported by multiple ppl).

    Regarding bbpress.org edit privileges, AGAIN… who the hell has them? another example of matt not being clear, or at least proof that whoever HAS edit privileges (maybe the few you mentioned) don’t give a rat’s arse about listening to feedback.

    Also. IM SICK of people saying “look at TRAC… look at TRAC” … who the hell looks at TRAC? And who the hell actually listens to and implements what is said on TRAC (re: bbpress)? Nobody and barely anybody with power, respectively! TRAC is mostly time wasted back and forth and tickets eventually being rejected or closed by matt or others, or shoved off into the big, vague, undefined world of “backpress.”

    THERE IS NO POINT to contribute to trac when matt IGNORES EVERYTHING and nothing has gotten anywhere for 2 friggin years. Why funnel feedback to the top of the chain when only one person, who doesn’t care or listen anyway, is the only person able to activate them?

    @Gautam, what due date was set for 1.0.3 cuz I have never come across one, and I know about 20,000 users who would love to know as well.

    @Kevin, you are finally starting to come around, but I won’t scare you off with praise.

    This is not a “bashing” thread. But if that’s the word you want to use, then yah, maybe matt does deserve a bit of bashing when he disrepects all of us this much.

    You can’t really compare open source internet communities to anything in real life. this is not CEO matt or volunteer matt. this is matt, the one dude who has the key to bbpress and refuses to let anyone in the door.

    Its perfectly reasonable to demand more from him, and call him out on his crap. christ people, this ain’t The Apprentice.


    kevinjohngallagher
    Member

    @kevinjohngallagher

    @Kevin, you are finally starting to come around

    Funny, I’ve had the same stance and opinion, and been vocal about both for about 2 years now. When did I start to come round? ;-]

    I won’t scare you off with praise.

    Don’t worry, you scared me off with your fake profile/username and using “yo” to end a sentance.

    Its perfectly reasonable to demand more

    No, it’s not. Sorry.

    It’s not reasonable to make demands on people.

    You can ask, you can state your case, but making demands? You’ll find you’re on your own there.

    Look, passion is cool. Sometimes people on the interweb are too passionate when stating their case. I’ve stuck with you here because I’m normally the one who crosses that line, 9/10 I don’t mean to, but I sadly do. So i’ve tried to bring you back round to making your point (which might be valid) in terms that people can get behind.

    Be constructive, give actual examples, gives solutions.

    Feel free to point out mistakes, I’ve done it, but you should praise the good work done too. Sometimes it’s like fish in a barrell. But don’t make presumptions about people and lay off the personal insults. It just shows a total lack of maturity, and isn’t doing your point any favour.

    May I suggest: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/

    I think I’ll leave this thread now. I’ve tried.

    Take care yo ;-]

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