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bbPress Plugin is Born

Viewing 25 replies - 26 through 50 (of 87 total)

  • mr_pelle
    Participant

    @mr_pelle

    This wouldn’t have even started if your brand new forum plugin for WordPress (for which I wish you the best of luck) were named NOT bbPress!

    This community and its software have survived the last months and I think they will, if this forum won’t be flooded by newbies not knowing exactly what software they are asking questions about…

    My email for further discussion: http://scr.im/mrpelle


    kevinjohngallagher
    Member

    @kevinjohngallagher

    bbPress 1.0.3, and bbPress 1.1, are still being actively developed. Once those versions are available, what /more/ would you want bbPress to do on its own?

    Honestly mate? Bug fixes.

    Some big bugs that we’ve had for over a year have been bumped because Matt told us we weren’t to have a bug fix release, and instead were to roll out a release with 2 new features instead.

    8 weeks ago Matt started deleting milestones from Trac. Didn’t tell anyone. Took him 3 weeks to reply to emails wondering why.

    bbpress1.0.3 was ready over 3 months ago (save for a Backpress bug we could live with/patch ourselves). Matt decreed we’ve not to package it and give it to folks as an alpha or even an actual release. We have to wait for 1.1 and the next version of BackPress to be ready. In order to speed that up, we’ve had to bump loads to 1.5, which now isn’t going to happen.

    This is the end of the line for the current implementation of bbPress.

    Yes. Just like 2.9.2 was the end of the road for the 2.9 branch of WordPress when 3.0 came along. I understand the obvious differences, but at the end of the day, it’s just another day.

    Two differences here though bro.

    1) No-one has actually said that yet.

    2) The new bbPress plugin is a totally separate project, being run under the same banner. Other than being able to import the data from the existing project, its totally different. It doesn’t even have the same requirements. Or any of the same code.

    This isn’t resistance to change, nothing is being changed, it’s being replaced. And someone needs to be very clear and categorical about that. This is very very different from going from WP2.9.2 to WP3.

    This is effectively a hostile takeover. The people with the keys to this website are handing the reins over to new management; while everyone is speaking in positive PR/Management speak. I’m not saying that the hostile takeover won’t be benefitial in the long run or benefitial to more people than currently use this product – i’m just syaing that hostile takeovers breed questions and uncertainty. Some of that uncertainty needs to be managed.

    I know that you’re a real positive guy JJJ, and I’ve said before it’s infectious because you deliver, and deliver with a smile. I can think of no-one better to deal with this.

    But the horse has bolted, the cat’s out the bag, the jig is up; and it’s a shame your left here answering questions, but in honesty – to some of us this is our livelyhood and we really need definative answers that are crystal clear so we can quote them as needed and make business decisions that affect our lives.

    I am sorry tht you couldn’t have done this in your own time and in your own way. Your handling and galvanising of the BuddyPress community has been great, as I’m sure it will be here as well, we just need to get over this hump so that we can work with you :D


    Rich Pedley
    Member

    @rich-pedley

    Firstly, thanks JJJ for actually confirming that bbPress as a standalone will be dropped after the plugin is released – that does make a difference to things being discussed.

    Non WordPress uses can’t use VaultPress, or BuddyPress. As the plugin is being developed, if you have suggestions on how it might still be able to sit on top of BackPress, I’m open to building that into it also provided it doesn’t overly sacrifice performance in other areas.

    I keep having a weird thought which I know it not practical, about a cut down version of WordPress – oh wait that was what BackPress was supposed to be wasn’t it? Then within it you could have an option to upgrade to get full WP functionality. It would literally only need the files that bbPress utilises.

    Ok I have weird thoughts – I admit it – hangs head in shame.


    zaerl
    Participant

    @zaerl

    I have a question for official developers:

    Update and submit new plugins right now is a complete waste of time?

    And to add to zaerls question: will creating/updating bbPress themes be a waste of time?


    _ck_
    Participant

    @_ck_

    Does Matt realize that over 10,000 sites are currently using the standalone version of bbPress?

    That’s not a massive number but it’s not trivial either.


    John James Jacoby
    Keymaster

    @johnjamesjacoby

    Can’t speak on anyone’s behalf, but I imagine he does. Those sites can continue to run bbPress all the same, and if a bug fix or security issues pops up with 1.0/1.1 branches, the responsible thing to do is to fix it and push out updates.

    I think what I might be confused about, is if bbPress as it is today is close to exactly what it should be, what would you want it to do 2 years from now that wouldn’t add more bloat or slow it down?

    If today, it’s good; then let’s fix up what we have to put out a solid 1.1 stand-alone, and when shift gears to focus on 1.2 as the plugin milestone.

    If someone crops up in 1.1 while we’re working on 1.2, then we put out a 1.1.1, etc…

    Nothing is being dropped, or abandoned, or tossed aside anytime soon. The plugin is just a new branch of code with the same heart and soul, that will be able to import existing installations into WordPress.


    citizenkeith
    Participant

    @citizenkeith

    Which Dev Update site should we be looking at now?

    http://bbdevel.wordpress.com/

    http://bbpdevel.wordpress.com/

    This is just the beginning of the confusion, I’m sure. Thanks for keeping us posted. We’ve been in the dark for a while, and it’s nice to hear from the plugin developers, even though some of us still use bbpress 0.9. ;)


    John James Jacoby
    Keymaster

    @johnjamesjacoby

    Yeah… We both basically missed each other when we started both of those. That was just a miscommunication and probably a blunder on my part. I’m not sure who did what first, but we’re going to merge those two and close one of them down soon.

    The way it sits today, is that ‘bbdevel’ is and has been the existing standalone development blog, and I opened ‘bbpdevel’ back in January when I originally started writing plugin bbPress code, not knowing if there was an existing dev blog, because there weren’t really existing devs :). I got busy with work, and it sat for a while, and now it’s back in full swing.

    If you need a way to remember it, think ‘bbp’ means bbPress plugin maybe? It wasn’t originally intended to be like that, but might help. I basically mirrored wpdevel(WordPress) and bpdevel(BuddyPress)


    zaerl
    Participant

    @zaerl

    zaerl:

    I have a question for official developers:

    Update and submit new plugins right now is a complete waste of time?

    and refueled:

    And to add to zaerls question: will creating/updating bbPress themes be a waste of time?

    I think that we deserve a direct answer. I have spent a lot of time and energy making plugins in the last 3 months (yes I am a newbie) and I want to know what to do in the near future.


    johnhiler
    Member

    @johnhiler

    It’s pretty dismissive to compare an open source project to cars, turntables and crock pots. bbPress is not a “hobby” for me. I have invested years of my life and tens of thousands of dollars in the platform. I’ve sponsored plugins, worked with developers, and answered help requests. It’s been a big part of my life, and my career.

    This is big news to deliver, and I wish that Matt had delivered it personally. Or at least weighed in on it on this thread.

    This proposed transition has been very badly handled. I am not even referring to the past year or so, or Matt’s posts in these forums or his speeches elsewhere. I am referring specifically to this proposed transition.

    Why not just announce the separate WordPress plugin project and use a new name – why use the same name, and confuse users and antagonize this thriving community?


    John James Jacoby
    Keymaster

    @johnjamesjacoby

    It’s hardly dismissive. Sorry you feel that way, but it’s meant to say that those of you that are upset, are also choosing not to hear what we’re saying anymore; you’re just mad and there’s not much I, or Matt, or anyone can do about that.

    Over the past year, we’ve seen people request more features, people request less features, people want new leadership, people want to know the direction of the project, etc… The fact is that you can start developing the core right away by submitting patches in the trac. If you’re not doing that, then you’re not investing in the future of the platform, you’re investing in your own ventures which I’m happy to help with, but can’t be responsible for.

    Sorry you feel it’s been badly handled, but to be quite fair, it’s partly because we’ve been directly answering everyone’s questions in this topic, and partly because this won’t happen for several months anyhow. This is big news to deliver, that’s why it hasn’t been delivered yet. :)

    John, you can continue to spend as much money as you’d like on the future of bbPress, doing those exact same things the exact same way. If you’re satisfied with what you’ve invested in today, you will continue to be tomorrow. Nothing changes other than bbPress has a team of developers that are communicating to everyone now.

    I’ve answered the ‘same name’ question a few times already, as have a few others. I mean nothing but the utmost respect when I say this, but there is nothing preventing anyone that’s upset here from developing bbPress core themselves and keeping up a stable branch if they see fit. It’s very much a meritocracy, so if you keep developing, you’ll keep climbing the ladder.

    There’s also nothing wrong with forking it the same way WordPress did with b2 in the beginning. We’d rather have you on board, but if you just can’t and won’t be involved in the future bbPress plugin, then all I can do is keep repeating myself. :/


    johnhiler
    Member

    @johnhiler

    I have funded the development of dozens of bbPress plugins, almost all of which are available on the plugins tab as open source. They are just not released under my name, as I didn’t do the programming.

    I have gone out of my way not to bash on bbPress on the forums, and to be supportive of the platform. I have 19 pages of posts on the bbPress forums, mostly answering questions from users.

    I don’t think I deserve the comments you directed at me. That said, I wish you all the best with your new project.


    _ck_
    Participant

    @_ck_

    JJJ: Nothing is being dropped, or abandoned, or tossed aside anytime soon.

    Good to hear. Probably should have started this topic with that as the first sentence as it would have prevented a lot of misunderstanding by many folks.

    Based on my experience and knowledge of bbPress internals, even with two developers working on it, there is no way a bbPress plugin is going to be robust enough in 2010 for the public, unless compatibility is going to be completely thrown out the window and it’s “bbPress” in name only (hence again my point, do not call it bbPress).

    But I’d like to hear the following as FACT from Matt instead of just casual opinion (as good of an opinion as it is):

    JJJ: … if a bug fix or security issues pops up with 1.0/1.1 branches, the responsible thing to do is to fix it and push out updates.

    For the record I’ll state that I intend to keep 0.9 going as long as reasonably possible. Before that last sentence appears elsewhere on the net let me qualify it by saying that doesn’t mean I am going to run a public fork of it. But in theory people should be able to count on it for years. Features would be added as plugins, not in the core.


    John James Jacoby
    Keymaster

    @johnjamesjacoby

    I have funded the development of dozens of bbPress plugins, almost all of which are available on the plugins tab as open source. They are just not released under my name, as I didn’t do the programming.

    I have gone out of my way not to bash on bbPress on the forums, and to be supportive of the platform. I have 19 pages of posts on the bbPress forums, mostly answering questions from users.

    I don’t think I deserve the comments you directed at me. That said, I wish you all the best with your new project.

    Plugins are great, but they haven’t helped lead bbPress or contribute to the core project. Everyone appreciates any plugin that shows up in any repo, sponsored or not, yours or not.

    I say this in the nicest way possible, but you shouldn’t have to go out of your way to be a genuinely nice person. Any and all contributions are always 100% awesome, so nothing I say ever is meant to mean anything other than that. The topic here is bbPress core, which means what comes in the bbpress.zip.

    I’m sorry if you feel anything I said to you was off-putting. Just trying to put out this fire and answer questions with what I know to be true.

    there is no way a bbPress plugin is going to be robust enough in 2010 for the public

    Probably very true, and I wish I had the chance to start this topic; it sort of got started without us. We’re still going to work really hard to get something out there. Compatibility is the number 1 priority before this should even be considered to use with existing data.

    Thanks for sticking to the 0.9 branch _ck_. I’ll be keeping equal eyes on the bbPress trac and BuddyPress trac, so if something crops up in 0.9 that needs committing or requires a security release, we can make that happen.

    The trac is open to everyone to snoop through all of the code, and I welcome the criticism of the plugin branch 100%. I want it to be the go-to discussion forum software for every WordPress powered site, and I know that a team of people can’t do that by themselves, nor should they have to.


    johnhiler
    Member

    @johnhiler

    I am a bit confused. Are you suggesting that plugin developers aren’t contributing to bbPress?


    John James Jacoby
    Keymaster

    @johnjamesjacoby

    I am a bit confused. Are you suggesting that plugin developers aren’t contributing to bbPress?

    Core. bbPress Core is what comes in the zip when you download it. A plugin in its own zip file isn’t the same as writing patches that help create bbPress.

    Is a plugin a contribution to bbPress in general? Of course! So are themes, moderators, evangelists, anyone that’s involved in a positive way is contributing.

    Is the work and the opportunity to use your plugin appreciated? Yes. Does a plugin (sponsored or otherwise) help new and updated versions of bbPress core get released to everyone that’s using it? No.


    Rich Pedley
    Member

    @rich-pedley

    apart from when plugins are taken on board and integrated into the core.

    I for one would hope that the ability to skip akismet is built into akismet for bbPress at some point in the future – retrieved from akismet is quite common here, and on the WordPress forums – enough to warrant it being added to the core. I know that is a plugin – but it is a slightly different case.

    I may not be able to help to much with the coding, but testing wise, and perhaps even accessibility wise I would be able to help.

    Would now be a good time to start a new section on here for discussion related to this new version?


    kevinjohngallagher
    Member

    @kevinjohngallagher

    Does a plugin (sponsored or otherwise) help new and updated versions of bbPress core get released to everyone that’s using it? No.

    But then JJJ mate, nothing does.

    We’ve not had a core release in over a year. It’s not like theres not been code added. Our only option was to add plugins to fix the functionality.

    I’m not wanting to get too historical, but you’ve not been here in the trenches for a while bro. Your last non BuddyPress topic you opened was well over a year ago. Other than teh welcome back Matt stuff, you aint been here my friend. You’ve not been here during the “all your plugins won’t work – lets take stock after 1.0’s released” era where we entered limbo.

    That limbo stayed when Sam left, so our bug fixes added to the core weren’t released.

    That limbo was compounded when Matt came and announced no bug fix release.

    Since then we’ve been adding to the core, and now Matts against us releasing (not that we can because we’re tied into BackPress which has only had 2 core updates in 5 months – instigated by us).

    With respect, what you fail to realise here is that bbPress is very close to being ideal for alot of us. Not adding to the Core is not down to a lack of desire to add to it, but rather not able to jump through the gates of the gatekeeper – especailly as he refuses to talk to anyone about bbPress (unless insulting us publicly).

    The major gripes that people have with bbPress have all been fixed. Yes 90% of them are currently in plugins, but they would be alot tighter and brought into line if 1) we weren’t in a holding pattern for over a year and 2) Automattic stopped fucking with the website so people could actually get at the plugins!!!

    I’m not against you making an awesome forum plugin for WordPress (little p); I contributed a little to Justin Tadlock on his 2nd attempt (although at a high level) and I’ll be glad to help you on this project too. But make no mistake my friend – you’re views on bbPress have been tainted by the perception that Automattic has been (mud?) slinging for a while.

    Now you may think i’m wrong on that, no worries.

    Can i ask then, what advantages will this plugin have over the current bbPress, and what disadvantages?

    I’m presuming that someone thought that out before making this decision


    kevinjohngallagher
    Member

    @kevinjohngallagher

    I think what I might be confused about, is if bbPress as it is today is close to exactly what it should be, what would you want it to do 2 years from now that wouldn’t add more bloat or slow it down?

    bbPress0.9 is as good as any forum software out there, save for 2 things. Moderation and the Admin section. It’s crazily fast, secure, and extentable. It’s let down by lack of actions/filters, default theme and documentation.

    bbpress1.0 is 50% slower and breaks alot of plugins but has some more hooks and an Admin section. Moderation is still the big thing, as is the default theme.

    A clear out (archiving) and rethink of the plugin section and the creation of a new theme would make it very very useable.

    Additionally both have also been let down by the layout/use of this forum, which makes finding information difficult; and a plugin section that doesn’t work.

    Basically, all the feature requests we recieve, all go over the same ground – and can be covered by plugins. Most are covered by plugins (in a 90%) sort of way. With everything in Limbo there is no need to take things to the n-th degree.

    From an honest to goodness Project management point of view, bbPress can be where we need it to be within 9 month – a year. But that time grows as we add more features (that we already have as plugins grrr) and less bug fixes.

    So yeah we could fork it as is. But given Matt’s current desire to berate us (both the people here and the software) in public at Wordcamps, and his latest more… evangelistic approach to publicly taking umbridge at anyone he doesn’t like or disagrees with him; he makes the envornment out there relatively difficult to consider moving into, while intentionally hampering our efforts here.

    If today, it’s good; then let’s fix up what we have to put out a solid 1.1 stand-alone, and when shift gears to focus on 1.2 as the plugin milestone.

    Dude, we’re trying.

    I mean, i know you know that :)

    But in order for that to happen, we need the head honcho or “he who wont talk to us, only about us in keynote speeches”. All Keymasters, all of those who package things up and can edit the website… AutoMattic. The same folks who’re scrapping us for you.

    I hate this looking like an US vs. THEM scenario, it just polarises people, and looks childish. But in honesty, “we” didn’t put ourselves in this holding pattern.

    Additionally, putting out a solid 1.1 standalone will be tough and time consuming. We’ve 13 months of bugs, we’ve 13 months of backPress changes and potential changes in 3 releases of WordPress to contend with; there is going to be alot of bugs found in testing – and with Jane telling people that bbPress in its current implementation isn’t going to even work the WordPress.org forums and Matt telling people not to use the software we’re are hemmoraging people.


    John James Jacoby
    Keymaster

    @johnjamesjacoby

    All this has been said, and answered before. I just downloaded 2 plugins from the repo, and they worked fine enough. I am also of the opinion that this iteration of bbPress.org is the best looking and working one so far. :)

    In Matt’s defense, I haven’t seen anything that Matt said qualify as berating, and the people he disagrees with, are people already on a verbal or moral offensive. Having been able to see through both sides of that looking glass, I can tell you with first hand experience that Matt is almost always on his A game, even if you don’t understand it at the time. But, this isn’t something I really want to get into because it just isn’t classy to do.

    I get that everyone wants to hear from Matt and/or Jane. It sounds to me like you really want an apology more than you want anything else, because you’ve answered your own questions about how gaps in development have been filled in.

    At the end of the day it’s free, open source software. Polarized or not, bbPress has a team now. If this can just be summed up as a years worth of pent up frustration coming out, I can understand that, but we’ve all been going at this for almost 3 days now, and I’d rather write code and fix stuff and make progress than rehash bbPress’s tumultuous existence.

    P.S. – BuddyPress uses bbPress internally, so I’ve lurked for the past year+ and paid attention to the goings on. I just didn’t have the time or energy to have these discussions then. Now, I do, but there’s not much more I can say; it comes down to what we do about it. Like it or not, this is the hand we’ve been dealt… Time to make the best of it. :D


    Markus Pezold
    Participant

    @markus-pezold

    Hi John JJ,

    thanks for your long statements here. For me – it’s great to hear about the future von bbPress. And even greater – bbPress has a team now!

    Yeahhh… :D

    Westi didn’t comment on it in my email to him, though he did say that he didn’t know that bbPress was dependant on BackPress – and he’s the BackPress lead!! really lovely guy, but it hardly bodes well.

    That isn’t a fair representation of what I said in reply to the email which was:

    I was unaware that BackPress was blocking bbPress release this is the first I have heard of it.

    Which is perfectly true – no one had tried to contact me directly about it before you.

    I was and still am surprised that a point release of bbPress would be running with a floating external as trunk of BackPress is never guaranteed to be perfect code.

    I would actually expect it to be run against the last revision that bbPress was release / against a branch with specific fixes as required.

    If anyone want to be sure to get my attention for a BackPress issue then the extremely quite BackPress-dev mailing list is the best way – I read every email to that list promptly – http://lists.wordpress.org/mailman/listinfo/backpress-dev


    kevinjohngallagher
    Member

    @kevinjohngallagher

    Peter,

    I sincerely apologise for the paraphrasing.

    I didn’t mean to misrepresent what you’d said in anyway.


    John James Jacoby
    Keymaster

    @johnjamesjacoby

    Looking back through a lot of this discussion, I can see how some of my posts in here sound a little crass; and that isn’t my intention or goal.

    So, let me apologize to each of you for that, if it came across that way.

    My intentions with bbPress are to be helpful, provide guidance, be a sounding board, commit patches, and make the bbPress plugin something everyone here can be proud to use.

    I don’t want anyone to fork anything; to feel left out, pushed out, forced out, any of that stuff. I very badly want everyone to feel comfort that we’re putting bodies and eyes on something that’s needed it for a long while, even if it isn’t exactly the way everyone agrees it should be.

    You all have my word that I’ll be combing the trac, and helping things around and about as much as I can. My concentration is on bbPress the plugin, and BuddyPress, but any place else I can spread some bandwidth, I’m glad to do it. If anyone else wants to help out, I’m happy to have you aboard.

    Pete Mall stepped up right away to help several months ago when this idea first cropped up in IRC and at a few WordCamps, so naturally he’s on board. The existing committers aren’t going anywhere, and everything is going to be A-okay. :D

Viewing 25 replies - 26 through 50 (of 87 total)

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