Info
- 88 posts
- 23 voices
- Started 1 year ago by Tom(dB)
- Latest reply from Matt Mullenweg
- This topic is not a support question
bbPress Plugin is Born
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- Posted 1 year ago #
Can't speak on anyone's behalf, but I imagine he does. Those sites can continue to run bbPress all the same, and if a bug fix or security issues pops up with 1.0/1.1 branches, the responsible thing to do is to fix it and push out updates.
I think what I might be confused about, is if bbPress as it is today is close to exactly what it should be, what would you want it to do 2 years from now that wouldn't add more bloat or slow it down?
If today, it's good; then let's fix up what we have to put out a solid 1.1 stand-alone, and when shift gears to focus on 1.2 as the plugin milestone.
If someone crops up in 1.1 while we're working on 1.2, then we put out a 1.1.1, etc...
Nothing is being dropped, or abandoned, or tossed aside anytime soon. The plugin is just a new branch of code with the same heart and soul, that will be able to import existing installations into WordPress.
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Which Dev Update site should we be looking at now?
http://bbdevel.wordpress.com/
http://bbpdevel.wordpress.com/This is just the beginning of the confusion, I'm sure. Thanks for keeping us posted. We've been in the dark for a while, and it's nice to hear from the plugin developers, even though some of us still use bbpress 0.9. ;)
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- Posted 1 year ago #
Yeah... We both basically missed each other when we started both of those. That was just a miscommunication and probably a blunder on my part. I'm not sure who did what first, but we're going to merge those two and close one of them down soon.
The way it sits today, is that 'bbdevel' is and has been the existing standalone development blog, and I opened 'bbpdevel' back in January when I originally started writing plugin bbPress code, not knowing if there was an existing dev blog, because there weren't really existing devs :). I got busy with work, and it sat for a while, and now it's back in full swing.
If you need a way to remember it, think 'bbp' means bbPress plugin maybe? It wasn't originally intended to be like that, but might help. I basically mirrored wpdevel(WordPress) and bpdevel(BuddyPress)
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zaerl:
I have a question for official developers:
Update and submit new plugins right now is a complete waste of time?
and refueled:
And to add to zaerls question: will creating/updating bbPress themes be a waste of time?
I think that we deserve a direct answer. I have spent a lot of time and energy making plugins in the last 3 months (yes I am a newbie) and I want to know what to do in the near future.
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It's pretty dismissive to compare an open source project to cars, turntables and crock pots. bbPress is not a "hobby" for me. I have invested years of my life and tens of thousands of dollars in the platform. I've sponsored plugins, worked with developers, and answered help requests. It's been a big part of my life, and my career.
This is big news to deliver, and I wish that Matt had delivered it personally. Or at least weighed in on it on this thread.
This proposed transition has been very badly handled. I am not even referring to the past year or so, or Matt's posts in these forums or his speeches elsewhere. I am referring specifically to this proposed transition.
Why not just announce the separate WordPress plugin project and use a new name - why use the same name, and confuse users and antagonize this thriving community?
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- Posted 1 year ago #
It's hardly dismissive. Sorry you feel that way, but it's meant to say that those of you that are upset, are also choosing not to hear what we're saying anymore; you're just mad and there's not much I, or Matt, or anyone can do about that.
Over the past year, we've seen people request more features, people request less features, people want new leadership, people want to know the direction of the project, etc... The fact is that you can start developing the core right away by submitting patches in the trac. If you're not doing that, then you're not investing in the future of the platform, you're investing in your own ventures which I'm happy to help with, but can't be responsible for.
Sorry you feel it's been badly handled, but to be quite fair, it's partly because we've been directly answering everyone's questions in this topic, and partly because this won't happen for several months anyhow. This is big news to deliver, that's why it hasn't been delivered yet. :)
John, you can continue to spend as much money as you'd like on the future of bbPress, doing those exact same things the exact same way. If you're satisfied with what you've invested in today, you will continue to be tomorrow. Nothing changes other than bbPress has a team of developers that are communicating to everyone now.
I've answered the 'same name' question a few times already, as have a few others. I mean nothing but the utmost respect when I say this, but there is nothing preventing anyone that's upset here from developing bbPress core themselves and keeping up a stable branch if they see fit. It's very much a meritocracy, so if you keep developing, you'll keep climbing the ladder.
There's also nothing wrong with forking it the same way WordPress did with b2 in the beginning. We'd rather have you on board, but if you just can't and won't be involved in the future bbPress plugin, then all I can do is keep repeating myself. :/
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I have funded the development of dozens of bbPress plugins, almost all of which are available on the plugins tab as open source. They are just not released under my name, as I didn't do the programming.
I have gone out of my way not to bash on bbPress on the forums, and to be supportive of the platform. I have 19 pages of posts on the bbPress forums, mostly answering questions from users.
I don't think I deserve the comments you directed at me. That said, I wish you all the best with your new project.
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JJJ: Nothing is being dropped, or abandoned, or tossed aside anytime soon.
Good to hear. Probably should have started this topic with that as the first sentence as it would have prevented a lot of misunderstanding by many folks.
Based on my experience and knowledge of bbPress internals, even with two developers working on it, there is no way a bbPress plugin is going to be robust enough in 2010 for the public, unless compatibility is going to be completely thrown out the window and it's "bbPress" in name only (hence again my point, do not call it bbPress).
But I'd like to hear the following as FACT from Matt instead of just casual opinion (as good of an opinion as it is):
JJJ: ... if a bug fix or security issues pops up with 1.0/1.1 branches, the responsible thing to do is to fix it and push out updates.
For the record I'll state that I intend to keep 0.9 going as long as reasonably possible. Before that last sentence appears elsewhere on the net let me qualify it by saying that doesn't mean I am going to run a public fork of it. But in theory people should be able to count on it for years. Features would be added as plugins, not in the core.
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- Posted 1 year ago #
I have funded the development of dozens of bbPress plugins, almost all of which are available on the plugins tab as open source. They are just not released under my name, as I didn't do the programming.
I have gone out of my way not to bash on bbPress on the forums, and to be supportive of the platform. I have 19 pages of posts on the bbPress forums, mostly answering questions from users.
I don't think I deserve the comments you directed at me. That said, I wish you all the best with your new project.
Plugins are great, but they haven't helped lead bbPress or contribute to the core project. Everyone appreciates any plugin that shows up in any repo, sponsored or not, yours or not.
I say this in the nicest way possible, but you shouldn't have to go out of your way to be a genuinely nice person. Any and all contributions are always 100% awesome, so nothing I say ever is meant to mean anything other than that. The topic here is bbPress core, which means what comes in the bbpress.zip.
I'm sorry if you feel anything I said to you was off-putting. Just trying to put out this fire and answer questions with what I know to be true.
there is no way a bbPress plugin is going to be robust enough in 2010 for the public
Probably very true, and I wish I had the chance to start this topic; it sort of got started without us. We're still going to work really hard to get something out there. Compatibility is the number 1 priority before this should even be considered to use with existing data.
Thanks for sticking to the 0.9 branch _ck_. I'll be keeping equal eyes on the bbPress trac and BuddyPress trac, so if something crops up in 0.9 that needs committing or requires a security release, we can make that happen.
The trac is open to everyone to snoop through all of the code, and I welcome the criticism of the plugin branch 100%. I want it to be the go-to discussion forum software for every WordPress powered site, and I know that a team of people can't do that by themselves, nor should they have to.
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- Posted 1 year ago #
I am a bit confused. Are you suggesting that plugin developers aren't contributing to bbPress?
Core. bbPress Core is what comes in the zip when you download it. A plugin in its own zip file isn't the same as writing patches that help create bbPress.
Is a plugin a contribution to bbPress in general? Of course! So are themes, moderators, evangelists, anyone that's involved in a positive way is contributing.
Is the work and the opportunity to use your plugin appreciated? Yes. Does a plugin (sponsored or otherwise) help new and updated versions of bbPress core get released to everyone that's using it? No.
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apart from when plugins are taken on board and integrated into the core.
I for one would hope that the ability to skip akismet is built into akismet for bbPress at some point in the future - retrieved from akismet is quite common here, and on the WordPress forums - enough to warrant it being added to the core. I know that is a plugin - but it is a slightly different case.
I may not be able to help to much with the coding, but testing wise, and perhaps even accessibility wise I would be able to help.
Would now be a good time to start a new section on here for discussion related to this new version?
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- Posted 1 year ago #
Does a plugin (sponsored or otherwise) help new and updated versions of bbPress core get released to everyone that's using it? No.
But then JJJ mate, nothing does.
We've not had a core release in over a year. It's not like theres not been code added. Our only option was to add plugins to fix the functionality.I'm not wanting to get too historical, but you've not been here in the trenches for a while bro. Your last non BuddyPress topic you opened was well over a year ago. Other than teh welcome back Matt stuff, you aint been here my friend. You've not been here during the "all your plugins won't work - lets take stock after 1.0's released" era where we entered limbo.
That limbo stayed when Sam left, so our bug fixes added to the core weren't released.
That limbo was compounded when Matt came and announced no bug fix release.
Since then we've been adding to the core, and now Matts against us releasing (not that we can because we're tied into BackPress which has only had 2 core updates in 5 months - instigated by us).
With respect, what you fail to realise here is that bbPress is very close to being ideal for alot of us. Not adding to the Core is not down to a lack of desire to add to it, but rather not able to jump through the gates of the gatekeeper - especailly as he refuses to talk to anyone about bbPress (unless insulting us publicly).
The major gripes that people have with bbPress have all been fixed. Yes 90% of them are currently in plugins, but they would be alot tighter and brought into line if 1) we weren't in a holding pattern for over a year and 2) Automattic stopped fucking with the website so people could actually get at the plugins!!!
I'm not against you making an awesome forum plugin for WordPress (little p); I contributed a little to Justin Tadlock on his 2nd attempt (although at a high level) and I'll be glad to help you on this project too. But make no mistake my friend - you're views on bbPress have been tainted by the perception that Automattic has been (mud?) slinging for a while.
Now you may think i'm wrong on that, no worries.
Can i ask then, what advantages will this plugin have over the current bbPress, and what disadvantages?
I'm presuming that someone thought that out before making this decision
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- Posted 1 year ago #
I think what I might be confused about, is if bbPress as it is today is close to exactly what it should be, what would you want it to do 2 years from now that wouldn't add more bloat or slow it down?
bbPress0.9 is as good as any forum software out there, save for 2 things. Moderation and the Admin section. It's crazily fast, secure, and extentable. It's let down by lack of actions/filters, default theme and documentation.
bbpress1.0 is 50% slower and breaks alot of plugins but has some more hooks and an Admin section. Moderation is still the big thing, as is the default theme.
A clear out (archiving) and rethink of the plugin section and the creation of a new theme would make it very very useable.
Additionally both have also been let down by the layout/use of this forum, which makes finding information difficult; and a plugin section that doesn't work.
Basically, all the feature requests we recieve, all go over the same ground - and can be covered by plugins. Most are covered by plugins (in a 90%) sort of way. With everything in Limbo there is no need to take things to the n-th degree.
From an honest to goodness Project management point of view, bbPress can be where we need it to be within 9 month - a year. But that time grows as we add more features (that we already have as plugins grrr) and less bug fixes.
So yeah we could fork it as is. But given Matt's current desire to berate us (both the people here and the software) in public at Wordcamps, and his latest more... evangelistic approach to publicly taking umbridge at anyone he doesn't like or disagrees with him; he makes the envornment out there relatively difficult to consider moving into, while intentionally hampering our efforts here.
If today, it's good; then let's fix up what we have to put out a solid 1.1 stand-alone, and when shift gears to focus on 1.2 as the plugin milestone.
Dude, we're trying.
I mean, i know you know that :)But in order for that to happen, we need the head honcho or "he who wont talk to us, only about us in keynote speeches". All Keymasters, all of those who package things up and can edit the website... AutoMattic. The same folks who're scrapping us for you.
I hate this looking like an US vs. THEM scenario, it just polarises people, and looks childish. But in honesty, "we" didn't put ourselves in this holding pattern.
Additionally, putting out a solid 1.1 standalone will be tough and time consuming. We've 13 months of bugs, we've 13 months of backPress changes and potential changes in 3 releases of WordPress to contend with; there is going to be alot of bugs found in testing - and with Jane telling people that bbPress in its current implementation isn't going to even work the WordPress.org forums and Matt telling people not to use the software we're are hemmoraging people.
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- Posted 1 year ago #
All this has been said, and answered before. I just downloaded 2 plugins from the repo, and they worked fine enough. I am also of the opinion that this iteration of bbPress.org is the best looking and working one so far. :)
In Matt's defense, I haven't seen anything that Matt said qualify as berating, and the people he disagrees with, are people already on a verbal or moral offensive. Having been able to see through both sides of that looking glass, I can tell you with first hand experience that Matt is almost always on his A game, even if you don't understand it at the time. But, this isn't something I really want to get into because it just isn't classy to do.
I get that everyone wants to hear from Matt and/or Jane. It sounds to me like you really want an apology more than you want anything else, because you've answered your own questions about how gaps in development have been filled in.
At the end of the day it's free, open source software. Polarized or not, bbPress has a team now. If this can just be summed up as a years worth of pent up frustration coming out, I can understand that, but we've all been going at this for almost 3 days now, and I'd rather write code and fix stuff and make progress than rehash bbPress's tumultuous existence.
P.S. - BuddyPress uses bbPress internally, so I've lurked for the past year+ and paid attention to the goings on. I just didn't have the time or energy to have these discussions then. Now, I do, but there's not much more I can say; it comes down to what we do about it. Like it or not, this is the hand we've been dealt... Time to make the best of it. :D
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- Posted 1 year ago #
Hi John JJ,
thanks for your long statements here. For me - it's great to hear about the future von bbPress. And even greater - bbPress has a team now!
Yeahhh... :D
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- Posted 1 year ago #
Westi didn't comment on it in my email to him, though he did say that he didn't know that bbPress was dependant on BackPress - and he's the BackPress lead!! really lovely guy, but it hardly bodes well.
That isn't a fair representation of what I said in reply to the email which was:
I was unaware that BackPress was blocking bbPress release this is the first I have heard of it.
Which is perfectly true - no one had tried to contact me directly about it before you.
I was and still am surprised that a point release of bbPress would be running with a floating external as trunk of BackPress is never guaranteed to be perfect code.
I would actually expect it to be run against the last revision that bbPress was release / against a branch with specific fixes as required.
If anyone want to be sure to get my attention for a BackPress issue then the extremely quite BackPress-dev mailing list is the best way - I read every email to that list promptly - http://lists.wordpress.org/mailman/listinfo/backpress-dev
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- Posted 1 year ago #
Peter,
I sincerely apologise for the paraphrasing.
I didn't mean to misrepresent what you'd said in anyway. -
- Posted 1 year ago #
Looking back through a lot of this discussion, I can see how some of my posts in here sound a little crass; and that isn't my intention or goal.
So, let me apologize to each of you for that, if it came across that way.
My intentions with bbPress are to be helpful, provide guidance, be a sounding board, commit patches, and make the bbPress plugin something everyone here can be proud to use.
I don't want anyone to fork anything; to feel left out, pushed out, forced out, any of that stuff. I very badly want everyone to feel comfort that we're putting bodies and eyes on something that's needed it for a long while, even if it isn't exactly the way everyone agrees it should be.
You all have my word that I'll be combing the trac, and helping things around and about as much as I can. My concentration is on bbPress the plugin, and BuddyPress, but any place else I can spread some bandwidth, I'm glad to do it. If anyone else wants to help out, I'm happy to have you aboard.
Pete Mall stepped up right away to help several months ago when this idea first cropped up in IRC and at a few WordCamps, so naturally he's on board. The existing committers aren't going anywhere, and everything is going to be A-okay. :D
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At the end of the day it's free, open source software. Polarized or not, bbPress has a team now. If this can just be summed up as a years worth of pent up frustration coming out, I can understand that, but we've all been going at this for almost 3 days now, and I'd rather write code and fix stuff and make progress than rehash bbPress's tumultuous existence.
Exactly. There comes a time when it is time to move on. IMHO that time is very near.
JJJ has patiently articulated, to this group, the mission he was commissioned to handle and IMHO it is time to code. As I watched this thread, I feared that he would get bogged down and burnt out trying to make everybody happy. However, he seems to be keenly aware of this and has done a good job of keeping his eye on the prize.
I am a WordPress user that has been waiting for a core forum plug-in for well over a year. As soon as it is available I am installing it, and I suspect I will not be alone.
If only 10% of the WordPress.org-powered websites install this plug-in, the bbPress plug-in user base would dwarf the stand alone bbPress user base. Making bbPress available to a much larger audience cannot be a bad thing, in the long run.
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@gswaim, except history is about to be repeated with nothing learned. "Very near" is also not likely this year. Completely different people worked on 0.9/1.0 and now the plugin version. There is going to be a learning curve.
The plugin version is going to have the same tumultuous development pattern that bbPress 0.7, 0.8, 0.9, 1.0 did and probably take a couple years to get stable and feature rich. It will probably also suffer from what I call the "kitchen sink" syndrome of WordPress where massive chunks of code are added as features which should have been plugins. But Automattic in general has a "not invented here" attitude towards plugins - if it's not in the core, it doesn't count.
There is also the problem that anyone on a shared host will unlikely be able to run WP 3.0 with the bbPress plugin unless they have a very small forum/memberbase. The resource demand is going to be massive and require hours of fine tuning which most novices will not be able to do. Forums cannot be heavily cached like blogs can.
Then you are right back to the same old WP problems which will be introduced into bbpress after avoiding them previously, plopping regular users into confusing WP admin menus to change settings and completely different than the site theme.
For the casual WP user that has a few dozen members and wants a simple forum, the bbpress as plugin will be very handy. For those with thousands of members and end up with a very active forum, they will spend a great deal of time dealing with the resource loads.
Remember, there are already a couple of plugins for WordPress that bring forum functionality - go look at their problems to foresee what is going to happen. That's how I ended up adopting bbPress standalone in the first place, I decided it was the best way to deal with the problems (work AROUND wordpress, instead of through it).
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- Posted 1 year ago #
It will probably also suffer from what I call the "kitchen sink" syndrome of WordPress where massive chunks of code are added as features which should have been plugins. But Automattic in general has a "not invented here" attitude towards plugins - if it's not in the core, it doesn't count.
Firstly, it's not "Automattic" that decides what ends up in the core of WordPress - we have open discussions to set the feature lists for each release and the decisions are driven based on input from a large base of regular contributors.
Secondly, I strongly disagree with the implication that WordPress has a "kitchen sink" feature set - in fact we try very hard to only bring in the things which have a wide audience and leave the more niche things for plugins.
One of the factors which helps a feature come into the core is the existence of a plugin which is popular showing a clear demand for a feature and sometimes providing a starting point for the implementation as well.
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- Posted 1 year ago #
Morning Peter,
It's cool if you disagree. I'm confident we could all pick something in WordPress in the core that we think should still be a plug-in; and of course there is no right answer. What I'm not sure you're aware of though, and you might be, is just how different the "overhead" between bbPress and WordPress is.
bbPress0.9 loads and runs at 10 or under SQL queries per page. Including the front page. Thanks to certain DB/query tweaks, and some wonderful _CK_ code, I have that at 8 SQL queries on one of my smallest intranet forums.
This is in comparison to the same 8 queries generated by the new wp_nav_menu in WP3.0. In fact the wp_nav_menu calls a not totally-in-expensive INNER JOIN for each post-type reference in the menu. It's not a set 8 calls, without judging anything based on what it will become, if wp_nav_menu starts to accept custom post types natively, that's going to shoot way up.
In a flat comparison, the default theme of WP3.0 with no plug-ins running, generates 19 SQL queries. Twice as much as bbPress0.9.
As someone mentioned earlier, the new bbPress plug-in would be lighter or sleeker. If it takes more SQL calls to generate the header and footer of WP than it does to load an entire bbPress forum - how does that work?
(I do realise that not all SQL queries are equal, but I do think it's quite a good initial benchmark. Especially if you look at SAVEQUERIES output and see what sort of query each is, and its execution time.)
Additionally, as someone with your background with WP, I would love to hear your take on the caching issue. For two of my websites that have relatively ok traffic, caching is essential on WP. There are plug-ins that do this brilliantly, so thats no worries. But thats very much a "1 to n" nature. Forums are an "n to n" nature; and really don't lean well with caching, especially in the flat-file constant-updated format.
How would one percieve that to affect WP based websites with a forum plugin of this nature attatched?=================================
I think there is a viewpoint that is being missed here.
People are falling into 3 groups:
- Need a forum that works with WordPress
- Need a standalone forum, but some WordPress integration is ideal (sign in/users)
- Needs a standalone forum.
There appears to be a presumption is that we're all in Group 1 and that we're fighting change. That's not the case at all.
I'm actually in favour of there being a WordPress forum plug-in. I think loads of people here will be. I also think that with JJJ working on it, and Justin Tadlock's second attempt out there in the wild that it will go really well. I wish it the best of luck, and if we can offer advice or war stories or anything to help out - we're here. We're here because we support FOSS :)
The issue arises here is if you're in Group 2, you have a decision whether to "upgrade" to running everything through WordPress or not. It's just been presumed that's your actual goal. At this point in time, we'd like some information (positives/negatives at a minimum) and info on how this decision has came about. People in Group 2 could move into Group 1 easily if given more information than:
"everything is going to be A-okay"
"Like it or not, this is the hand we've been dealt..."But the users in Group3, the people who chose this as standalone forum software and didn't make that decision based on WordPress - they're being thrown out on their ear. With no warning. JJJ has stated, and I think we all appreciate that he's taken the time to sit and answer some questions, that bbPress1.1 will be it's last. Well, thats announced as bbPress1.1 is 1 trac ticket away from being released. How much warning is that??
If you're in Group3, and large chunk of our support questions come from people who are, you will now be 'forced' to run WordPress if you want to stick with bbPress.
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I suppose what I'm saying is this. Changes in Life and in FOSS happen. Some we like, some we don't. But there has to be a carrot with every stick, or people start to feel publicly flogged.
I want JJJ and Pete and anyone who helps them to succeed in achieving their goals. But I've scanned this forum page, and the emails they were kind enough to send me, and right now, if you didn't come here specifically to use a forum inside WordPress... I can't see the carrot.
There are people here alot cleverer than me, and alot better at wording than myself, so if i'm missing the carrot, please do a Denzel "explain it to me like a 3 year old".
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With all the eyeballs looking at WordPress and all the new faces every few years, it's amazing to me how much code optimization falls through the cracks and is never addressed.
bbPress as a plugin is now going to be exposed to that. In fact, ironically in 0.9 there are functions from earlier versions of WordPress that were never optimized and do "expensive" recalculations and yet it's STILL significantly faster than 1.0 with the newer functions from BackPress.
WordPress still has places where it calculates kinds of conversion tables yet never stores them statically for when it will likely be used again in the same page load. All those eyeballs looking at the code never see it and never fix it.
WordPress after all these years STILL uses the poorly performing SQL_CALC_FOUND_ROWS, something that was discovered and fixed in bbPress 0.9 but ironically was re-introduced with BackPress in 1.0, and will likely continue as a plugin.
My problem with "progress" is regression. It happens often because no-one questions the bloat and then the bloat starts to hide mistakes because the code is too hard to follow and people forget the original purpose of a function.
But by all means, keep throwing junk into the core, don't dare keep it isolated in a plugin where it can be examined and improved easily (ie. avatars, tinymce, phpmailer, etc.)
They never do version freezes for long periods of time to clean up and optimize code, they just pile on features in the name of progress.
Go install WP 2.1 and check the memory and query footprint.
Then install WP 3.0 and compare. It's fairly disgusting in comparison.
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But the users in Group3, the people who chose this as standalone forum software and didn't make that decision based on WordPress - they're being thrown out on their ear. With no warning.
That's exactly what I was trying to say!
By the way, http://twitter.com/petemall/status/18674039981
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Can we focus on the positives:
bbPress was laying there dormant - it now has a future. This future isn't going to suit everyone but that's life.
I'm not at all surprised bbPress will become dependant on WordPress. People have wanted an easy to integrate solution for a long time. The majority of support posts on this forum tend to be about integration (if they're not CSS based!). bbPress as a plugin will satisfy those needs.
Yes, there will be certain users that get burned, but there are ways around it.
People are falling into 3 groups:
- Need a forum that works with WordPress
- Need a standalone forum, but some WordPress integration is ideal (sign in/users)
- Needs a standalone forum.
- Satisfied customers
- Satisfied customers - this will be easier than it's ever been. I know, I've spent hours and hours theming bbP, making sure cookies work, and all the other hoops I've had to jump through.
- Either run WP and don't use it (just let it sit there, but really, how many sites don't have some kind of blog associated with them?), and if it's really not ideal or you're completely against it there are plenty of standalone forum softwares out there.
At least we know what is happening and people can make informed decisions about which way to go with their site.
The decision has been made so accept it and use all this energy and knowledge to contribute to the project and make a great product.
_ck_, you know I always appreciate your efforts towards plugins and your extensive knowledge on bbPress, so why not use it to participate and keep the new bbP plugin streamlined - as much as it can be considering your comments on WP3.0 performance.
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By the way I want to address this quote:
...it's not "Automattic" that decides what ends up in the core of WordPress - we have open discussions to set the feature lists for each release and the decisions are driven based on input from a large base of regular contributors.
You are kidding yourself if you think the community is given anything but choices on minor things. Major decisions that change the entire direction of these projects for Automattic are made every year by Matt. Changing bbPress to use backPress is the #-1 example of a single sourced decision done without any input from any contributors. bbPress as a WordPress plugin is another one.
The very first simple question I asked when I heard about backPress is "when will WordPress be changed to also use backPress" (to benefit from all the work needed and the theoretical savings from using a common function set). It's a very easy problem to predict but was never asked and never answered, ending us up exactly where we are today.
