Forum Replies Created
I’ve been side tracked with BuddyPress bugs and paying work, so don’t expect anything official for a week or two. I have a few projects coming up fast that will need this working so while I’m missing my soft Sept 15 deadline, I don’t think it will be /too/ far off.
Sorry to disappoint, it’s no fun… and thanks for your patience with me and it.
For the record, I love bbPress. I have a few commits going into 1.1, and I have every intention of making bbPress be the best it can be as a WordPress plugin.
Regarding my motivation and priority, it’s to make great forum software that fits inside WordPress; nothing more and nothing less.
Regarding why I was able to step into this role, it’s because our peers believe I am capable, and I am willing to dedicate time and effort towards it getting it done.
Regarding any possible benefit BuddyPress might see, is a welcome bonus but not a priority. BuddyPress/bbPress processing times should decrease with BuddyPress 1.2.6, as a few tweaks have been made and a bug or two have been patched in that regard. Even still, nothing compares to the blazing fast speed of bbPress by itself, even in the slower 1.x branch.
Regarding everything else, I’m just here to write the best code I can, help make bbPress a great WordPress plugin, and have fun doing it all. So far, so good on my end.
I don’t even know what to say right now.
I want you all to know I’m reading everything, but I’m speechless.
@_ck_ I think that’s a good idea. Anything to minimize confusion.
Aw, you’re all so afflicted.
A few of the more vocal people in the BuddyPress forums raised concerns about me dual wielding projects, so it made more sense to address it there than here. Plus there’s a bigger audience over there, and since both blogs feed into the WP dashboard you’re all going to see it regardless.
It’s easy to assume that no one is thinking of you guys, I am, I was, and I did.
And yes, I’d like to have /something/ usable in a month or so, like I said in that post “give or take a missing feature or two.”
So, buck up.
johnhiler, part of us using WordPress’s built in API and architecture means we’re actually leaving turned off a lot of functionality that could easily be turned on, filtered, changed, or added to with actions.
Without it being too over the top, we’re trying to plan ahead and put actions and filters where I think I would use them myself. Since most of what we do for clients is develop custom plugins to change the way WordPress functions, we should be able to apply that experience to bbPress.
One of the things we’ve struggled on with BuddyPress, is how to make plugins, for plugins. Since plugins don’t have an internal dependency like there is on CSS or JS, we’ve had to filter and action our way into a workable solution.
So while bbPress itself is a plugin, the plan is for other plugins to be able to sneak in and change bbPress behavior before it loads, or be able to ‘plug in’ the same as always. So bbPress will be its own core, but also modular and pluggable.
All this, while striving to be as light as possible. Our work is cut out for us.
I think if there was such a thing as optimism police, they would live in these forums.
I also think, the people we will win over, are everyone that thinks this is the worst thing ever to happen since burnt bread.
I think bbPress as a plugin is going to win a lot of people once it’s ready and out in the wild.
Erlend, will try my darnedest to deliver
johnhiler, if you like plugin-centric development, you should love the bbPress plugin so far (hopefully) Hopefully it’s able to walk the line and offer the best to both.
What is a plugin and what is core is always one of those topics that tends to change and drift with the times. 6 years ago having properly formatted links to someones blogroll was considered important enough for WordPress core, but chances are people are using that functionality less and less as time goes on and people are able to connect to people more quickly and organically.
kevinjohn, we haven’t tackled it in the plugin version yet, but the difference between a ‘category’ and a ‘forum’ will be fairly distinct once we get it going. My experience working with the Categories Hierarchy project back in my phpBB days taught me the importance of handling the way those types of data behave.
Pete and I talked about this in #bbpress last night a little bit. Using WP post types lets us inherit all this neat stuff, but much of it isn’t really /needed/…
Like Forum/Topic/Reply revisions, comments, thumbnails, excerpts, etc… Sure there’s lots of neat ways those things could be used, but they don’t help keep things trim and tidy.
Would love to get some good feedback on this!
Thinking part of the JS minify issue may have been not emptying the cache after changing the settings. Before I wasn’t automatically uploading the changes to the CDN.
Seems to be fine now, and can’t duplicate it when I want to see it.
If you really want it minified, I’m happy to get the plugin author involved in testing, to see if it’s a w3tc or bbPress issue.
Spent the past week or so testing a few larger BuddyPress/bbPress installations with W3TC, and I can say that it works a treat with the bundled version of bbPress we tuck in there too.
Experienced the same JS minify on the inline JS also actually. Wonder if it’s a bug. I’ll see what I can dig up.
Always loved this idea personally. As a 2004 phpBB2.x graduate, I was constantly trying to make my forum software do stuff it wasn’t intended to do. This brings me back to those days.
I think the way it would make the most sense is for it to work kind of how the Blogs component does now. If you don’t have multi-site turned on, the Blogs component is kind of dormant.
I imagine we would pull bbPress out of the buddypress.zip, and instead have BuddyPress be more ‘bbPress aware’ so to speak. It would see if it’s already installed and if it’s active, then BuddyPress Forums lights up and is available for fun adventures.
This way we’ll be able to separate the need for forums to be linked to groups, which has been an area of debate since we went that way. Forums could really be used for almost anything now!
@gswaim If it comes down to name calling or aggression, that’s always an option, but usually the last one if we can all help it. Fortunately the moderation team over here is fantastic, so no worries there.
The decision to allow Pete and myself the opportunity to do the bbPress plugin conversion wasn’t only Matt’s to make, and was agreed on by a committee of all of our peers running the 3.org initiatives, in #wordpress-dev on freenode, and on the WordPress development blog.
The reason it’s bbPress 1.2 rather than bbPress 2.0 (at least as it stands today) is because part of the coding standards we adhere to is not inflating version numbers. Could always see if everyone agrees to inflate based on the amount of new code going in, but I don’t think that’s my decision to make, and I would wager that it’s unlikely to happen? Been wrong before though.
_ck_… you’d rather let bbPress die than let it be reborn and successful as a plugin?
I didn’t expect that from one of bbPress’s most vocal supporters and longest standing contributing members.
That being said, I very much appreciate your volunteering to continue to maintain the 0.9 branch; I appreciate everyone that’s worked hard on the 1.1 branch; and I very much look forward to the success of the 1.2 branch.
Again, just too many of the same points to repeat myself, but bbPress standalone isn’t going to be “unsupported”, it just isn’t going to see any additional features, which is exactly what I think most of you want. Correct me if I’m wrong here?
If I wasn’t on my iPad I’d quote myself volunteering personally to commit any bug fixes to the 1.1x branch of code if anything comes up, but again, that went totally unresponded to.
All of the things I’ve offered to do, to help continue the 1.1x branch of standalone code in addition to creating the 1.2 plugin, have gone totally unacknowledged. If you want to be able to do it yourself, you’ll need to have the experience to understand that the code you write is responsible for powering millions of sites around the world, and that you can easily create global chaos with one click of a button. Call me melodramatic, but in environments like WordPress.com, it’s very true. My experience over the past year has had me much more close to that kind of environment, particulalrly with BuddyPress.
A year ago I felt keeping bbPress as a standalone made sense because a year ago I didn’t comprehend what was coming in WordPress, particularly 3.0 where custom post types have made much more possible. I also had less experience with BackPress, and don’t get me wrong; BackPress is awesome, but bbPress won’t reach its full potential until it’s a plugin for 25 million other websites.
Kevinjohn, I’m sorry but you’ve got a knack for twisting words around and quoting things totally out of context. That’s not really fair, and I wouldn’t do it to you or anyone else so I’d appreciate the same.
I don’t get what you all want bbPress to do differently that would even require a new standalone version. I’ve asked that before, and there’s no answer; just frustration.
bbPress has always been an Automattic endorsed project, and considering without Matt it wouldn’t exist, or have a trac, an svn, or core developers thus far, it seems like he’s the one who’s earned the ability to make decisions on the future of the project. If you call me believing that to be true drinking that Kool Aid, I’m happy to do it because I believe Matt and Automattic and bbPress has earned that from me. If Matt wanted to abandon bbPress completely and close up shop, he could, and someone could graciously keep it alive by forking it. None of that stuff, should make anyone this upset.
My employment status or relationship with Automattic aside, I’m happy, blessed, and consider it a great privilege to have the trust of Automattic and the surrounding community to take this on, even if some of you don’t understand why it’s me, or why now, or why a plugin.
Regarding TalkPress, the main reason it’s named differently is to avoid the confusion people have with WordPress.org and WordPress.com. bbPress is the opensource forum software of choice for WordPress users. If any of you want to help the plugin work on top of backpress, patches welcome and I’m open to the idea. Otherwise, I’d wager 60% or more of the support questions regarding bbPress are incorporating it with WordPress. It’s been said in this topic already, but making it a plugin alleviates those issues, and still allows everyone to keep loving bbPress.
In all honesty, all this back and forth is tiring, and all it’s doing is taking the team of people that are here to help keep bbPress alive, and make us the enemy to the people that are just happy to see life again. That, and it’s taken our ability to communicate news to the bbPress community away from us, and instead forced us to try and put out this fire for the past 4 days.
Quite frankly, it all kinda sucks.
I get that the reality (for some of you) of switching bbPress to rely on WordPress instead of BackPress doesn’t sit well or even make sense, but I promise you it does. I might even have a trick that will help make the admin area a little more familiar. But 1.2 isn’t going to use BackPress anymore. Instead it’s going to use WordPress. bbPress itself is getting lighter, and we inherit all the eyes and updates that WordPress has had that BackPress hasn’t. That alone, if you ask me, is more than enough reason to be thankful for this move. If you need it super optimized, we’ll inherit all the caching plugins for WordPress. If you need bells and whistles, we get WP plugins. There is too much to gain, to not have bbPress be a WP plugin.
The existing standalone committers, are doing a great job already. There are very few trac tickets to work through in terms of bug fixes, and most of the enhancements would naturally get fixed by making it a plugin.
So… I want to say again, your passion and enthusiasm is something I want, and appreciate. If any of you are going to WordCamp Savannah, I’ll gladly discuss this over drinks and dinner. Whatever you need, I want to make it happen for you, but the name isn’t changing, Myself and the team are going to support the standalone with security updates as needed. Since I have commit access, I’m happy to commit fixes as needed because I’ve been trusted with that ability and I want everyone happy with a safe and functional piece of software, plugin or standalone.
I also, typed this out entirely on my iPad over the course of an hours worth of “leisure time.” if that doesn’t say you have my attention and commitment, I dunno what does.
Too much to address, but I’ll pick some points.
WordPress + BuddyPress + W3 Total Cache = less than 10 queries on a complete social network. If optimization is your cup of tea, there’s lots of ways you can achieve that. Core issues with WP should be directed over to those folks.
If you have a method to make it better, submit a patch. Then you can work your way up to being one of ‘those people’ that are making the decisions that you don’t agree with.
Pete’s status, isn’t any different than the way you all feel about things. If you can vent your frustrations, so can he.
Help me understand why we’re upset again.
1. bbPress 1.1 (standalone) – Still in active development
2. bbPress 1.2 (plugin) – Months before anyone should consider it stable, but you’re welcome to jump on the bandwagon early and help make it exactly the way you want it, side by side with Pete and myself, and anyone else that’s along for the ride.
Regarding # 1, what MORE do you want your lightweight standalone software to do? If you want it to be more efficient, spend some time walking through queries and making it that way. If you want something in the UI changed, do it; patch it; make it go, and I will review it, and commit it.
Regarding # 2, our goal is to have this usable ASAP as part of the 3.org initiatives, but I wouldn’t want anyone outside of that initiative using it for production until it’s released. I know we all like to live on the bleeding edge (I’ve always been that guy too) so now’s your time to start helping us weld things in from the very get-go. If you think the way we’ve doing it now is completely wrong, let us know and provide us a better way; I am happy to listen and make it right, because I want what you want; the best bbPress possible.
I think all this talk about Matt, and Automattic, should be redirected back towards Automattic the company, and not bbPress the open source software. I understand the two are perceived to be tightly integrated because mixing money and open source is mixing business with pleasure, and it’s always hard to explain or understand the difference.
I think the general negativism has taken its toll already, and it’s time to try to look at this glass as half full going forward. Please? Kindly?
Not trying to be a jerk here, but man… there is no end in sight here, and it just isn’t productive or helpful anymore. We need to tighten this ship up before it sinks itself. I say this, not from a “looking down” perspective, but from a “‘we’re in this together so let’s make the best of it” perspective.
Looking back through a lot of this discussion, I can see how some of my posts in here sound a little crass; and that isn’t my intention or goal.
So, let me apologize to each of you for that, if it came across that way.
My intentions with bbPress are to be helpful, provide guidance, be a sounding board, commit patches, and make the bbPress plugin something everyone here can be proud to use.
I don’t want anyone to fork anything; to feel left out, pushed out, forced out, any of that stuff. I very badly want everyone to feel comfort that we’re putting bodies and eyes on something that’s needed it for a long while, even if it isn’t exactly the way everyone agrees it should be.
You all have my word that I’ll be combing the trac, and helping things around and about as much as I can. My concentration is on bbPress the plugin, and BuddyPress, but any place else I can spread some bandwidth, I’m glad to do it. If anyone else wants to help out, I’m happy to have you aboard.
Pete Mall stepped up right away to help several months ago when this idea first cropped up in IRC and at a few WordCamps, so naturally he’s on board. The existing committers aren’t going anywhere, and everything is going to be A-okay.
All this has been said, and answered before. I just downloaded 2 plugins from the repo, and they worked fine enough. I am also of the opinion that this iteration of bbPress.org is the best looking and working one so far.
In Matt’s defense, I haven’t seen anything that Matt said qualify as berating, and the people he disagrees with, are people already on a verbal or moral offensive. Having been able to see through both sides of that looking glass, I can tell you with first hand experience that Matt is almost always on his A game, even if you don’t understand it at the time. But, this isn’t something I really want to get into because it just isn’t classy to do.
I get that everyone wants to hear from Matt and/or Jane. It sounds to me like you really want an apology more than you want anything else, because you’ve answered your own questions about how gaps in development have been filled in.
At the end of the day it’s free, open source software. Polarized or not, bbPress has a team now. If this can just be summed up as a years worth of pent up frustration coming out, I can understand that, but we’ve all been going at this for almost 3 days now, and I’d rather write code and fix stuff and make progress than rehash bbPress’s tumultuous existence.
P.S. – BuddyPress uses bbPress internally, so I’ve lurked for the past year+ and paid attention to the goings on. I just didn’t have the time or energy to have these discussions then. Now, I do, but there’s not much more I can say; it comes down to what we do about it. Like it or not, this is the hand we’ve been dealt… Time to make the best of it.
I am a bit confused. Are you suggesting that plugin developers aren’t contributing to bbPress?
Core. bbPress Core is what comes in the zip when you download it. A plugin in its own zip file isn’t the same as writing patches that help create bbPress.
Is a plugin a contribution to bbPress in general? Of course! So are themes, moderators, evangelists, anyone that’s involved in a positive way is contributing.
Is the work and the opportunity to use your plugin appreciated? Yes. Does a plugin (sponsored or otherwise) help new and updated versions of bbPress core get released to everyone that’s using it? No.
I have funded the development of dozens of bbPress plugins, almost all of which are available on the plugins tab as open source. They are just not released under my name, as I didn’t do the programming.
I have gone out of my way not to bash on bbPress on the forums, and to be supportive of the platform. I have 19 pages of posts on the bbPress forums, mostly answering questions from users.
I don’t think I deserve the comments you directed at me. That said, I wish you all the best with your new project.
Plugins are great, but they haven’t helped lead bbPress or contribute to the core project. Everyone appreciates any plugin that shows up in any repo, sponsored or not, yours or not.
I say this in the nicest way possible, but you shouldn’t have to go out of your way to be a genuinely nice person. Any and all contributions are always 100% awesome, so nothing I say ever is meant to mean anything other than that. The topic here is bbPress core, which means what comes in the bbpress.zip.
I’m sorry if you feel anything I said to you was off-putting. Just trying to put out this fire and answer questions with what I know to be true.
there is no way a bbPress plugin is going to be robust enough in 2010 for the public
Probably very true, and I wish I had the chance to start this topic; it sort of got started without us. We’re still going to work really hard to get something out there. Compatibility is the number 1 priority before this should even be considered to use with existing data.
Thanks for sticking to the 0.9 branch _ck_. I’ll be keeping equal eyes on the bbPress trac and BuddyPress trac, so if something crops up in 0.9 that needs committing or requires a security release, we can make that happen.
The trac is open to everyone to snoop through all of the code, and I welcome the criticism of the plugin branch 100%. I want it to be the go-to discussion forum software for every WordPress powered site, and I know that a team of people can’t do that by themselves, nor should they have to.
It’s hardly dismissive. Sorry you feel that way, but it’s meant to say that those of you that are upset, are also choosing not to hear what we’re saying anymore; you’re just mad and there’s not much I, or Matt, or anyone can do about that.
Over the past year, we’ve seen people request more features, people request less features, people want new leadership, people want to know the direction of the project, etc… The fact is that you can start developing the core right away by submitting patches in the trac. If you’re not doing that, then you’re not investing in the future of the platform, you’re investing in your own ventures which I’m happy to help with, but can’t be responsible for.
Sorry you feel it’s been badly handled, but to be quite fair, it’s partly because we’ve been directly answering everyone’s questions in this topic, and partly because this won’t happen for several months anyhow. This is big news to deliver, that’s why it hasn’t been delivered yet.
John, you can continue to spend as much money as you’d like on the future of bbPress, doing those exact same things the exact same way. If you’re satisfied with what you’ve invested in today, you will continue to be tomorrow. Nothing changes other than bbPress has a team of developers that are communicating to everyone now.
I’ve answered the ‘same name’ question a few times already, as have a few others. I mean nothing but the utmost respect when I say this, but there is nothing preventing anyone that’s upset here from developing bbPress core themselves and keeping up a stable branch if they see fit. It’s very much a meritocracy, so if you keep developing, you’ll keep climbing the ladder.
There’s also nothing wrong with forking it the same way WordPress did with b2 in the beginning. We’d rather have you on board, but if you just can’t and won’t be involved in the future bbPress plugin, then all I can do is keep repeating myself.
Yeah… We both basically missed each other when we started both of those. That was just a miscommunication and probably a blunder on my part. I’m not sure who did what first, but we’re going to merge those two and close one of them down soon.
The way it sits today, is that ‘bbdevel’ is and has been the existing standalone development blog, and I opened ‘bbpdevel’ back in January when I originally started writing plugin bbPress code, not knowing if there was an existing dev blog, because there weren’t really existing devs . I got busy with work, and it sat for a while, and now it’s back in full swing.
If you need a way to remember it, think ‘bbp’ means bbPress plugin maybe? It wasn’t originally intended to be like that, but might help. I basically mirrored wpdevel(WordPress) and bpdevel(BuddyPress)
Can’t speak on anyone’s behalf, but I imagine he does. Those sites can continue to run bbPress all the same, and if a bug fix or security issues pops up with 1.0/1.1 branches, the responsible thing to do is to fix it and push out updates.
I think what I might be confused about, is if bbPress as it is today is close to exactly what it should be, what would you want it to do 2 years from now that wouldn’t add more bloat or slow it down?
If today, it’s good; then let’s fix up what we have to put out a solid 1.1 stand-alone, and when shift gears to focus on 1.2 as the plugin milestone.
If someone crops up in 1.1 while we’re working on 1.2, then we put out a 1.1.1, etc…
Nothing is being dropped, or abandoned, or tossed aside anytime soon. The plugin is just a new branch of code with the same heart and soul, that will be able to import existing installations into WordPress.
I just feel sorry for all the plugins developers…
No. Not probably, and not at all.
So far everyone’s managed to keep this pretty light and well mannered, and the easiest way to keep that pace is to not fuel any fires.
And what about non WordPress users?
Non WordPress uses can’t use VaultPress, or BuddyPress. As the plugin is being developed, if you have suggestions on how it might still be able to sit on top of BackPress, I’m open to building that into it also provided it doesn’t overly sacrifice performance in other areas.
There’s a lot of goals we hope to hit by doing this, one of which is allowing bbPress to be pocket sized and extensible from within WordPress, so that it can do other unique things that existing plugins have needed to jump through hurdles to achieve. Dedicated user forums, user groups, post/topic syncing, better BuddyPress integration, attachments, revision history, proper moderation, etc… If you don’t need those things, you can turn them off in WordPress all the same.
I know that my vote isn’t the popular one amongst the dedicated bbPress lovers, and there are lots of logistics to make this a smooth transition. With this initiative we have more people dedicated towards making this smooth and successful than bbPress has ever had in it’s 6 year history. That along with complete support from the original plugin author means it’s the next evolutionary step in bbPress’s journey.
I’ve been involved in too many hobbies to not know what it feels like when the version of something you love is discontinued, and something else replaces it that just ain’t the same. Cars, turntables, computers, cell phones, crock pots… You name it, I’ve dealt with the expiration of one thing, and moved on to the next.
The major difference with us and bbPress, is you all can help make the plugin do what you need it to by contributing code with patches. I couldn’t force Honda to bring back the del Sol CR-X if I tried.